Unearth the Past: A family history & genealogy podcast
Step into the fascinating world of genealogy and family history with Unearth the Past, a podcast hosted by the charismatic Dr. Michala Hulme. This show masterfully blends riveting discussions, deep dives into historical contexts, and practical tips for uncovering your ancestral roots. Each week, Dr Hulme welcomes an eclectic mix of guests—musicians, actors, sports stars, and public figures—unravelling the remarkable and often surprising stories hidden within their family trees.
Beyond these compelling narratives, the podcast serves as a treasure trove for genealogy enthusiasts, spotlighting essential tools and resources for research. It also paints a vivid picture of the social and cultural landscapes that shaped family histories, exploring powerful themes like immigration, industrial revolutions, and the resilience of past generations.
If you would like to get in touch with Michala, you can do so via her website, www.michalahulme.com
If you want to help support the making of the podcast, please visit Michala's Patreon account https://www. patreon.com/DrMichalaHulme
Unearth the Past: A family history & genealogy podcast
S3 Ep10: From Moradabad to Merseyside: Unearthing the past with pop icon Holly Johnson
When Holly Johnson's voice first electrified the airwaves with Frankie Goes to Hollywood in the 1980s, few could have imagined the rich ancestral tapestry behind the man who urged us all to "Relax." Stepping away from his musical legacy, Holly joins us to unravel a family history that spans continents, military service, and unexpected cultural connections.
Growing up in Liverpool – a city he describes as essentially "the capital of Ireland" – Holly's early years were shaped by sectarian divisions and The Beatles' omnipresent influence. The proximity to musical greatness made success seem achievable for a local lad with ambitions beyond Liverpool's docklands.
Most surprising is Holly's significant connection to India, discovered through multiple generations of military service. His great-grandfather John Joseph McLaughlin met and married Eurasian Kathleen Mary Maguire while stationed with the South Lancashire Regiment in India. Their son – Holly's grandfather – was born in Jubalpur, creating a direct link to the subcontinent that explains the 4% Asian DNA Holly had previously discovered through Ancestry testing.
The journey follows Holly's maternal grandmother's heartbreaking childhood in a Catholic orphanage after her Royal Navy father died of pneumonia, leaving four children separated across different institutions. Meanwhile, his paternal grandfather survived being gassed and shot during WWI before becoming a pharmacist.
For music fans and family history enthusiasts alike, this episode offers a fascinating glimpse into how our past shapes our present, even when those connections remain hidden for generations. Listen now to discover the unexpected roots of one of Britain's most distinctive musical voices.
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Hello and welcome back to Unearth the Past, a family history and genealogy podcast that delves into the lives of interesting people. I'm Dr Michaela Hume, historian and genealogist, and I've been researching family trees for the past 20 years. So, for our eagle-eyed viewers, if you're watching on YouTube, you may have noticed that we are not in our usual studio today, and that's because we are back on the road. We are in a studio in South West London to chat to a man who is a true British icon. His voice defined a generation, his music pushed boundaries and his anthems still electrify the airwaves, From the pulsating beats of Relax to the cinematic grandeur of the Power of Love. His work with Frankie Goes to Hollywood transformed the sounds of the 1980s, blending controversy with creativity, style with substance. But his journey didn't stop there. He's an artist, activist, writer and a storyteller. Today I am thrilled to be joined by the one and only Holly Johnson. Holly, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:I had a go at doing my own family tree.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask you about this. So you did have a go and you had already done an Ancestry DNA test. What was it that sparked that interest that made you want to have a look?
Speaker 2:Just the mysterious characters that were in my family that I didn't know much about, characters that were in my family that I didn't know much about. And you know, my dad passed away in 2000 and my mum is now 90. And I would have conversations about my grandparents and great-grandparents on the maternal side grandparents on the maternal side and she knew quite a bit, but my father's side was quite mysterious. We didn't know much about them because there wasn't much communication. After I was about 10 years old with that side of the family, they moved away to a different part of Liverpool and I never saw them again, really, and have only vague memories.
Speaker 2:And also I had my DNA analysed by Ancestry and it did say 4% Asian and I already knew about that. So it gave me a little bit more faith in them because I thought, you know, maybe it's all just baloney. I had a little go myself on the website and with conversations with my mother and trying to get names. But it's a real skill, I think. Genealogy and especially working on that website, it's not easy and they keep coming up with clues for you and censuses from from years and years and years ago and you think, oh, that may be a lead, but you just don't know.
Speaker 2:You have to have a particular talent for it, I think, which you obviously have Patience.
Speaker 1:I think is the right word Patience yeah.
Speaker 2:And time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, that's another thing.
Speaker 2:It does take time.
Speaker 1:I know you've just mentioned Liverpool and you are obviously from Liverpool.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Talk to me. What was it like, then, growing up in Liverpool, for our American audience, who might not know that much about Liverpool? What was it like, holly, growing up in Liverpool?
Speaker 2:Well, think of Liverpool as the capital of Ireland really it's the nearest port to Ireland and there was also a strong sense of who was Protestant and who was Roman Catholic, of who was Protestant and who was Roman Catholic. And when my mum, who was Roman Catholic, married my father, who was Church of England, that was considered a mixed marriage at that time. So it was very like Ireland. And also I grew up during the Troubles, as they call it, and Orange Lodge marches in Liverpool were still going on and there was a, you know. But I had Roman Catholic friends and Protestant friends.
Speaker 2:Once I tried to join the Orange Lodge only so I could learn the concertina, because kids in these parades were played the concertina, and I said, oh, how did you learn to play that? And it was music that I was interested in. So so they said, oh, we joined the lodge. But I went to join the lodge and they scared the living daylights out of me on my first attendance by telling me I couldn't play with Catholic friends and you must go out of the room while we invoke Celtic fire or something, and I could hear them in the room chanting these scary things. I was only very young, so I just ran for my life, I'd say, oh, that's not for me, you know, even though I could have learnt the concertina.
Speaker 1:You know, even though I could have learnt the concertina. Now we know Liverpool as a very musical city. What were your? I mean, it's dead easy to go to sort of the Beatles but who was inspiring you from the city to get into music?
Speaker 2:Well, it was very much the Beatles. My mum grew up near Penny Lane in Kenyon Road and knew John Lennon's mum, julia, who she always said looked like Lucille Ball with red hair and red lipstick, and she knew George Harrison and people like that lived nearby. My mum still lives in that area off Prince Alfred Road, round the corner from Penny Lane Bus Terminus where I got this bus to school every day and the Beatles were so prevalent. My sister had Beatles wallpaper, my elder brother had a Beatles cap, people would walk around in plastic Beatles wigs. It was very much the Magical Mystery Tour and Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band influenced me greatly.
Speaker 2:The Wizard of Oz, when everything turns from black and white which Liverpool was, it seemed to me into sort of technicolour like the cover of Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and the Magical Mystery Tour. So that was right on my doorstep and my auntie Kath would say oh, I saw the Beatles in the passport office getting their passports. So it made you think as a child that it was possible to be a local lad and have a career in music and not some romantic figure like Gene Pitney that my auntie Kath went to see at the Liverpool Empire when I was a kid he seemed a glamorous American almost movie star. And the Elvis films I would see in Technicolor on a Saturday morning at the cinema in Chewbrook there was all that happening. And also MGM musicals Judy Garland, fred Astaire and Gene Kelly. You know I was very interested in them and that song and dance aspect of entertainment.
Speaker 1:Was any of your family musical and we're going to delve into your family tree in a second or were you like the first one of your family to sort of take music seriously?
Speaker 2:Well, not to my knowledge, except for my elder brother was also in the St Mary's Wavertree Choir a church, and I followed him into that, but he left by then. So I was the only person in our school, which was St Mary's Primary School, that was in the actual choir of the diocese.
Speaker 1:Right, should we delve into your family tree? Should we see how Liverpudlian your tree is? Oh, absolutely. Now I've given you a copy of the tree there. So at any point, if we get lost with great-great-granddads, and you've got a copy there for you to have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I need to put my specs on. You'll need your specs on.
Speaker 1:You'll definitely need your glasses for this one. Okay, so should we start with your mum then?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, my mum, pat. We call her, although her name was Clarissa Patricia McLaughlin, I believe that's correct. Yeah, but everyone just calls her Pat and she's living, although her name was.
Speaker 1:Clarissa Patricia McLaughlin, that's correct?
Speaker 2:I believe yeah, but everyone just calls her Pat and she's living which?
Speaker 1:is great.
Speaker 2:She is. She's 90 years old and living yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm very grateful for that. I am so grateful for your mum, actually, because her family tree, when I started delving into it, was so interesting and that's where we're going to start oh, brilliant so you've just mentioned your mom's, pat. Her parents are marie, but she was born marianne ah yeah, green, and john patrick mclaughlin, who would be your grandparents grandfather, yeah I've actually got their marriage certificate, if you would like to see it oh amazing so I'm gonna pass that over.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you can make any of it out. If you could read any of it, that would be great.
Speaker 2:Don't worry if you can't, holly marriage solemnized at all saints church, amfield walton on the hill District of West Derby in the County of Liverpool In 1934, wow, patrick McLaughlin, marie Green. She was only 18 and he was 26.
Speaker 1:That's quite a little difference A bit of a difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was a bachelor, she was a spinster. He quite a little difference, a bit of a difference. Yeah, he was a bachelor, she was a spinster. He was a wireless operator, no, a wireless apparatus dealer and there were all kinds of valve wirelesses and television sets in their front room that he was repairing. He had one of those shops, apparently, where you'd take your telly in or TV, as they say, and get it repaired by him.
Speaker 2:He was a real tinkerer of machinery, but when I knew him in the 1960s he'd given up the shop and he had it all in his front room and he he mess about with it and repair things for people. That's when they were big, heavy, you know, valve televisions and valve radios. He was always soldering something.
Speaker 1:That smell of solder?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and she made great egg and chips.
Speaker 1:Did she?
Speaker 2:Yeah, fabulous, the best egg and chips I've ever tasted.
Speaker 1:My favourite. Egg chips and beans is one of my favourite things. Yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker 2:So, but they lived in Gladstone Road when I knew them.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, which?
Speaker 2:is in Edge Hill. Oh, and it's got.
Speaker 1:You should have the name of the fathers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, John Joseph McLaughlin and Wallace Wallisby Green. Is that Wellesley Wellesley?
Speaker 1:Wallace Wellesley Green, that's a name isn't it Walter, walter Wellesley, oh, walter.
Speaker 2:Wellesley, green, I see. And profession of father Army instructor. Yeah, wow, green, I see, I'm professional father army instructor yeah, wow, and petty officer, royal navy. So there's a bit of a military background there. There is which ties into the story. I've heard about my paternal, maternal great-grandmother.
Speaker 1:We'll hang fire because we're going to go there in a minute. So I don't know if you can see where they're living. Does it say on there where they're living?
Speaker 2:59 Newcombe Street Walton and 67 Newcombe Street Walton, so they were neighbours. They were neighbours 67 Newcombe Street, walton, so they were neighbours. They were neighbours, but I do know that they lived with my great-grandmother when they were married for 10 years.
Speaker 1:Now this is how close the houses are. So the blue house is 67 and that cream one is 57.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's how close they lived. They lived a few doors down, as we say.
Speaker 1:Literally a few doors down. We're going to start with John Patrick, who should be on there. So John Patrick McLaughlin.
Speaker 2:We called him Cocker, did you? Yeah, that was his nickname, cocker, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I thought we could start with him.
Speaker 2:Okay. If that's all right, that's fine.
Speaker 1:He's called John Patrick McLaughlin. He goes by the name Patrick. You know him as Cocker. He was the son of John Joseph McLaughlin.
Speaker 2:He was the son of John Joseph McLaughlin Right. And I want to start with John Joseph McLaughlin who's on that piece of paper, if that's all right.
Speaker 1:The army instructor, the army instructor. So he was born on the 25th of October 1878, at number one Ashgrove in Kirkdale, and I have a copy of his birth certificate.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, If you would like to see it Amazing.
Speaker 1:So I don't know if you can try and make any of that out. It's lovely handwriting. They're not all as nice as that one.
Speaker 2:Well, it was drilled into people in those days, beautiful handwriting, I think one. Well, people, it was drilled into people in those days, beautiful handwriting, I think. Uh, now, of course people can hardly write, can they, because they're all on technology. So, 25th of october of 1878, name john for sex, boy john mcLaughlin, mary McLaughlin, formerly Galvin. Oh, formerly Galvin. Okay, and he was a labourer. It says on here oh, no, his father was a labourer, that's right, ashgrove Kirkdale. Both are disseminated. So then the registrar is RH Webster. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:So his dad's John and his mum is Mary Galvin. Okay, and at the time when he was born, as I've already mentioned, they were living at one Ashgrove In the Kirkdale area of Liverpool. In 1891, I find John. He's 12 years old and he's living with his parents at 66 Henley Street, which is in Litherland.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, they're sort of far-flung parts of Liverpool, okay, kirkdale and Litherland, I think. I don't really know them, to be quite honest with you.
Speaker 1:Now, that was on the 1891 census. After the census was taken, john started working as a labourer but he wanted something, I think, a bit different with his life. I think he'd maybe had enough of Liverpool and wanted to do something different. So on the 11th of June 1897, he signs up to join the army and he joins the 1st Battalion of the South Lancashire Regiment.
Speaker 2:Liverpool was in Lancashire at that time.
Speaker 1:It was yeah, that's right Now. One of his first postings was to India, and it's in India that he falls in love with a local girl called Kathleen Mary Maguire.
Speaker 2:My great-grandmother.
Speaker 1:That's your great-grandmother. So John Joseph McLaughlin, your great-grandfather, marries Kathleen Mary Maguire, your great-grandmother. That's your great-grandmother. So John Joseph McLaughlin, your great-grandfather, marries Kathleen Mary Maguire, your great-grandmother, on the 26th of September 1904, in Jubalpur.
Speaker 2:Jubalpur.
Speaker 1:I have a copy of their marriage certificate. I don't know if you can make any of that out for our listeners.
Speaker 2:It's very English-looking. I don't know if you can make any of that out. For our listeners it's very English looking, Of course it was at the time when England ruled India, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they were occupied country, really. Marriage out of the United Kingdom At Jubalpur, oh, 26 December 1904. At Jubalpur, 26th of December 1904, at Jubalpaw. John Joseph McLaughlin, english. Kathleen Mary Maguire, eurasian. Yes, now, that's the first time I've heard her described as Eurasian. I knew she was Eurasian, but I was told she was Indian and Irish. I was told Because her father's name was Maguire, with a small C, which is definitely an Irish name as is McLaughlin yes, an Irish name.
Speaker 2:As is McLaughlin, yes, john McLaughlin. The sea is a small sea and he was a stevedore. That sounds romantic.
Speaker 1:It's not that romantic.
Speaker 2:No, a dock worker, wasn't it? But Marlon Brando on the waterfront was a stevedore, I believe, and she was an accountant. Oh no, her father was an accountant. Okay, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Now I don't know if you've noticed at the bottom, one of the witnesses was a JD Maguire.
Speaker 2:JD Maguire and an M Jenkins.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so JD Maguire was John Dallas Maguire. He's quite a well-known person from the area. At that time he was the district superintendent of the police force. Oh, and he was Williamiam, who you see on there. That was william's cousin oh, his cousin that was yeah, so that was his cousin. So john and k busy.
Speaker 2:He was a busy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, John and Kathleen, your great-grandparents have two children. They have John Patrick McLaughlin, who was born in 1908 in Jubalpur. That is your grandfather.
Speaker 2:Oh, he was actually born in.
Speaker 1:India. He was, yeah, and Patricia Mary. She was born in 1911 in Multan, Punjab. Auntie Pat, auntie Pat was born there as well. Oh wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, sometime after August of 1911, john was furloughed from the army and they decided to return home from India, back to Liverpool, and the next record I have for him is this record that I'm going to show you now, and this is from 1913. I don't know you don't need to read it all, but I don't know if you can make out what type of record this is and maybe just give us a summary of this record.
Speaker 2:Oh, royal Infirmary it says that's not a good sign. John Joseph McLaughlin, he was a sergeant, colour sergeant, volunteer rifles and obviously it's his death certificate because he had lymphatic leukemia and left in A widow of 54. And did they live in Seaforth, it seems to say at that time I had no idea about. I knew he died during her lifetime but I didn't know Green Lane, seaforth, that they lived over the water.
Speaker 1:Shall we explain what over the water is for our American listeners?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you had to take a ferry across the Mersey, basically in order to get to Seaforth, and Seaforth was one of the first stops, I think, across the Mersey. You will all know the song Ferry Across the Mersey, which I also did a cover version of with Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Did you? Yes, oh dear. So he had leukaemia. That's very sad.
Speaker 1:So you knew he'd passed away, didn't you? But not of what? Yeah?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't know that, but rumour has it that he had a brother.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll keep going. So he was buried on the 3rd of November 1913 at the Ford Cemetery in Liverpool, which is the Roman Catholic Cemetery in.
Speaker 2:Liverpool. I see.
Speaker 1:Alone and in a strange country. Kathleen remarries. She remarries on the 22nd of June 1915 at St Francis Xavier Church. She goes on to marry John's youngest brother.
Speaker 2:George, so I believe. So I met him. We called him Farvey Right, that was his nickname. In the family I met her and, uh, him, and they were still living in a house, I think next door, no, no, in the house that my mum now lives in. Wow, yes, that's when I first met her and auntie pat, her daughter so she marries, uh, john shun.
Speaker 1:Good brothers george. And in 1915 they welcome a boy called george after his dad, uncle george, uncle george. And in 1917 they welcome a girl called Nora Kathleen. The next record that I have for the family is the 1921 census. I'm going to let you have a look at that Did. Nora die, she did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I heard about that. Yeah, she did Quite young was it. Yeah, I think I've got her death certificate.
Speaker 1:I'll show you that in a minute, was it? Yeah, I think she. I've got her death certificate, so I'll show you that in a minute. But in 1921, they're living at 14 Guildford Street, which is in Everton, in the Everton area of Liverpool. This is the 1921 census. I'll just pass that over to you. I don't know if you can give us an idea of who's living in the house.
Speaker 2:Oh, george McLoughlin was the head of the family, so he was the younger brother of John.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Catherine McLaughlin, his wife, my great grandmother, patrick McLaughlin, my grandfather oh no, it says, nephew, because to George.
Speaker 1:They would have been his nephew. Yes, of course patricia mclaughlin.
Speaker 2:That's got who's the niece of george. Isn't it funny the way they take the male relationship with the child as precedence because it's the relationship to the head of the household.
Speaker 1:I understand Now. If the head of the household had been a woman, it would be. How are they related to her? It's confusing to us.
Speaker 2:They very rarely chose a woman over a man, as the head of the household especially in those days. So Patrick McLachlin, my grandfather, Trish McLaughlin, my auntie, past great aunt, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:George McLaughlin Uncle, george Mary McLaughlin, mother. So George's mother lived with them. She did um, so she would be my great great grandmother. That's correct, quite key. And helly, helly mclaughlin looks like let's have a look. Can you read that? Let's have a look, nellie, nellie.
Speaker 1:So which would have been Ellen?
Speaker 2:Ellen okay.
Speaker 1:So that's everybody then in 1921. They're all living together.
Speaker 2:In Everton.
Speaker 1:In Everton. You may notice, as we've already mentioned, that Nora isn't on, which would be your grandfather's half-sister. She's missing and that's because, unfortunately, nora Kathleen dies on the 12th of April 1921. She's three years old and she dies of pneumonia and influenza.
Speaker 2:Quietly yeah.
Speaker 1:She was buried on the 16th of April 1921 and she's buried at the Utrecht Cemetery.
Speaker 2:Oh, utrecht Cemetery yeah in Liverpool.
Speaker 1:The next record I find is the whole family again in 1939. They're living at 3 Radstock Road. George is still working on the docks, mary Kathleen is an insurance agent and your grandfather's sister, your great aunt she is a dance teacher oh yes, there was talk about auntie pat.
Speaker 2:She was a bluebell girl, apparently, and a circus performer. Wow, bluebell Girls performed in a troupe started by a girl from Liverpool and they performed at the Folies Bergères, I think, in Paris, and that part of her life is quite mysterious. I don't know much about it, but it sounds quite showbiz and glamorous to me, although I'm sure it was very hard work in actual fact, physically demanding and not easy.
Speaker 1:I did have a look, but the chances are she probably went by a different. She went by a stage name possibly and that's why I couldn't couldn't find much. I want to keep going, if that's all right. I want to go down the maguire line while, while we're still on this side of your tree so we've already mentioned mary kathleen maguire, your great-grandmother.
Speaker 1:She was born on the 3rd of May 1887 in Nagpur, india. She was one of five children born to William Maguire, the accountant, who was your great-great-grandfather, and Rita Clara Maguire, william, her father, the accountant. He was born on the 5th of November 1851 in Maradabad, maradabad, maradabad, in Bengal, india.
Speaker 2:He was Bengali.
Speaker 1:He was. He was baptised on the 3rd of January 1857 in Maradabad. I have his baptism record if you would like to see it Amazing, but still a very English sounding name.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So Rita.
Speaker 2:Or Irish sounding in fact.
Speaker 1:So Rita is definitely Indian. I think she's a local girl that he's married the Maguires we're going to follow them back a bit yet, but I think you can tell by the name that they're obviously not of Indian descent, but Rita was. Rita was a local girl that he fell in love with and married. I'm just going to show you William. This is William the accountant. This is his baptism record for you to have a look. So that's him, his brother and his sister all got baptised on the same day in Maradabad, in Maradabad oh, it was a job lost.
Speaker 1:it was get them all in. We're only coming here once. You already know that he was an accountant and we know that from the marriage certificate we've looked at. But he worked for the public works department, the council, basically the council, yeah, so they're in charge. The public work departments are in charge of, basically, infrastructure building, creating new roads, new infrastructure and he was responsible basically for the financial, you know, overseeing it all financially. He died on the 25th of December 1911, and he is buried in Bulhari Cemetery in India. I have a copy of his grave, a picture of his grave, if you would like to see it.
Speaker 2:Oh well, why?
Speaker 1:not, it's the one on the left.
Speaker 2:William Maguire, retired accountant PWD.
Speaker 1:Public Works Department Public.
Speaker 2:Works Department PWD, public Works Department. Public Works Department Born 1st of November 1881. Died December 1911.
Speaker 1:There was a lovely poem. Some of the letters are missing so you can't quite see them, but there's a lovely poem that was erected by his sorrowing wife, which I'll send to you so you can have a read of. That was erected by his sorrowing wife, which I'll send to you so you can have a read of that. Rita Clara Maguire died on the 22nd of June 1939. She was 69 years old. She is buried at Nagpur. Again, I've got a picture of her final resting place if you'd like to see it.
Speaker 2:Rita Clara Maguire, age 69, a loving mother.
Speaker 1:You have seen many troubles.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's sad. Yeah, I can't read it very well, it's difficult. No, the letters are missing, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:No, the letters are missing, unfortunately, but I have managed to transcribe it for you. So it says A loving mother. You have been many troubles you have seen For each of us. You did your best, darling mother. God grant you eternal rest.
Speaker 2:Aww.
Speaker 1:Erected by sorrowing children.
Speaker 2:That's sad.
Speaker 1:So William Maguire the accountant was your great-great-grandfather. He was the son of John Maguire and Matilda Devacus. They would be your great-great-great-grandparents. John and Matilda married on the 26th of November 1839, in Camp T, which is in Madras in India. I have their record if you would like to see it, and it does give you some idea of why the Maguires are in India. So that's their marriage certificate from the 1830s.
Speaker 2:Oh, this looks quite different to a marriage certificate that I've seen previously In amazing cursive handwriting, officiating in the absence of an ordained clergyman. This marriage solemnized between us, signed John Maguire and Matilda Devicus Devicus yeah. That's a strange name.
Speaker 1:So John Maguire, and it was a beautiful record, but it's always quite hard to read. So, John Maguire, he was in the 3rd Battalion of the Artillery. There's that military. They're all army men aren't they?
Speaker 2:They're all military, yeah, posted in India.
Speaker 1:John was in the army when he got married. However, if we come further into time, he later worked as a clerk in the local magistrate's office in Maradabad in Bengal in India. Now, john was born in India. His parents are Cecilia and John Maguire Senior. That would be your four times great grandparents. I haven't been able to find out that much about John Senior other than he was born in 1795. I think he's probably and I don't know this for definite the first generation that's moved over from Ireland and settled in India, and I imagine that's because he's in the military. So I think uh, I think that's what it is. Matilda is mixed race, she's Euro-Asian. So she, even though she was born in India, she has a British father and an Indian mother.
Speaker 2:There was lots of intermarriage then in the military Okay.
Speaker 1:So we've just had a look at your mum's paternal line. So I'm going to have a look at your mum's maternal line.
Speaker 2:Marianne.
Speaker 1:So Marianne, who went by the name Marie.
Speaker 2:She did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, marie Joseph or Mariah, I love it yeah, mar so marie joseph green, the first record that I have for her is her birth certificate. She was born on the 27th of may 1915 and she was born at 23 pym street, which which is in Davenport in Plymouth.
Speaker 2:That's right. Is that Cornwall or Devon?
Speaker 1:Devon. Sorry, Devon Devon. Yeah, Her father is Walter Wellesey Green and her mother is Mary Ellen Josephine Green, formerly Crowley.
Speaker 2:I did meet her once. I remember her.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:She's the one who said she was born in Boston, Massachusetts.
Speaker 1:That could answer a question for me, because I struggle to find anything out about her, and I'll come back to her in a minute.
Speaker 1:Marie's father was a petty officer in the Royal Navy and in 1915 he was based on board Torpedo Boat 045. Oh, my Walter Wellesley Green, who is your great-grandfather. He was born on the 30th of December 1883 in Hastings, sussex, so we've left Liverpool now. On the 10th of January 1901, he joined the Royal Navy as a cadet and by 1911, he was stationed with the Royal Navy in Hong Kong. Amazing, in 1913, he married your great-grandmother, ellen Josephine Crowley. I have a copy of their marriage certificate if you would like to see it.
Speaker 2:Mary Ellen, josephine Crowley, walter Green yeah, mar Green, we used to call my great-grandmother on, did you, mar Green?
Speaker 1:Mar Green.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was also someone called johnny french yes, that's right.
Speaker 1:We're going to pick up on him in a minute I remember that name as well. There you go so they married then on the uh on the 29th of may. At the time of their marriage they're both living at the Albert Hotel in Pembroke Dock. Walter is a petty officer in the Royal Navy, his father is Walter Green and he's a chef, so Walter's named after his dad. Mary Ellen Josephine Crowley she was 22 at the time of the marriage and she was a barmaid working in the Albert Hotel when he was staying there.
Speaker 2:So she got him drunk and got a ring on her finger.
Speaker 1:I'm saying nothing. Holly and her father was William Henry Crowleyley and he was a ship steward. Ship steward, a petty officer, is equivalent to like a sergeant. For those that don't know, in the in the army, so it's a high up, high up rank.
Speaker 1:Now, after their marriage, the couple moves around quite a bit with walter's job in the navy. So, 1914, they're living in Davenport, which is a naval base for the Royal Navy and this is where your grandmother and her brother are born, because he's stationed there. By 1916, the couple have moved back to Pembrokeshire where their other son, william Henry Green, is born. And then in 1917, they're in Cardiff and that's where their fourth child, charles Green, is born. And then this happens 18th of May 1918.
Speaker 2:Walter Wellesley Green, 34 years, petty officer, hms Defiance Pneumonia oh, that's Pneumonia, certified by RS Carey. So Ellen was the widow in attendance. 91, eldon yeah, something, eldon Road yeah, something, eldon Road, calton, cardiff, cardiff yeah, cardiff, amazing. So he died young.
Speaker 1:So they've had these four children.
Speaker 2:And she's left alone with them.
Speaker 1:She's now a widow Gosh. Then I struggled, really struggled, to find out what happened to not only her but what happens to the four children. I do manage to find Marie, who is your grandmother. I managed to find her in 1921 and she is at St Teresa's Home and Orphanage, which is a Roman Catholic orphanage in Plymouth.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, an orphanage. She's at an orphanage. She was quite a character Marie or Granny we called her but I never knew she lived in an orphanage. Older, uh, but I never knew she lived in an orphanage. Maybe she was, maybe her mum couldn't cope and had to put.
Speaker 1:I think that's what it was so she's in an orphanage, charles and william. They're in the same orphanage, which is this one here. Oh, I don't know if you want to have a look at that and where's that? So this is saint vincent's home for boys and that's in torquay in devon okay, and saint vincent's home for boys.
Speaker 1:Basically was the boys equivalent of saint theresa's, so saint theresa's used to be mixed, and what happened was then the boys went to saint vincent, the girls went to St Teresa's, I see, so they're separated. They were all run by the Daughters of Charity of St Vincent de Paul. On behalf of the Plymouth Rescue.
Speaker 2:Society Were they nuns yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then Walter. He's at a totally different home in Kent, oh, in Kent.
Speaker 2:So they were all split up, all split up yeah.
Speaker 1:I think and I'm not 100% sure I think I've found out what happened to Mary Ellen. I think she moved to Liverpool and she gets a job in domestic service, Because I have found somebody who is her age, is working in domestic service and she's a widow. I think that's what happens to her, but obviously, because her name is Mary Green, it's impossible for me to 100% say that that's her, but I think it is. What I do know about her, though, is she remarries.
Speaker 1:So in 1933 your great-grandmother remarries a gentleman named John William French ah, johnny French and they live at 67 Newcombe Street, which is the house that I showed you before, when we looked at the image which is the address on the marriage certificate for your grandmother, marie. I'm just going to go back slightly. So we mentioned Walter Wellesley Green, who died in 1918, who is your great grandfather. He was the son of Walter Green and I remember I showed you the marriage certificate. His father was also called Walter Green and he was a chef Right A chef. Was was a chef, right A chef.
Speaker 2:Was he a chef on the ship?
Speaker 1:No, he wasn't. So Walter Green's a chef and his wife is Agnes Watson, and Agnes Watson was from Liverpool. Oh, I want to pick up on Walter's senior story, the Chef who would be your great great grandfather, and he worked in hospitality, holly, his whole life, his whole life In 1881,. He's working at a very prestigious hotel called the Grand Pump Room Hotel, which is in Bath, and that is it. Oh, that is in Bath, and that is it.
Speaker 2:Oh, that looks very fancy. It's very fancy. But Bath is quite fancy, isn't it? It was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. And while working at the hotel he falls for the daughter of a coachman from Liverpool and that's Agnes Watson. After they got married he runs several different hotels and restaurants with agnes watson. After they got married he runs several different hotels and restaurants with agnes. And in 1911 I find your great great grandparents, walter and agnes, are living at 17 nottingham street in cardiff. Walter is employed as a chef at the hanbury hotel. Then I managed to find when I was doing my newspaper search. He came up in the search results and this is a record from 1913, which I'd just like to quickly show you. I don't know if you can make out what that says. It's slightly blurred, but you might just be able to make it out.
Speaker 2:Oh, cardiff man's fall from furniture van With his left arm fractured and his side badly injured. Walter Green, a Cardiff chef living at 17 Nottingham Street, was admitted into the King Edward VII Hospital on Monday. He was riding on a furniture van near Pengham County School on the way to perform some catering duties for Mr E Rowley of the Hanbury Hotel Sarge when a sudden skid of the van threw him violently to the roadway and he sustained the injuries described.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he unfortunately doesn't make it. Oh no, yeah, so, yeah, so unfortunately he passes away due to a road accident, a road accident well, that's unfortunate and for her as well yeah, so I did manage to go a bit further back actually with that line. So I kept going back down the greens to find out, well, where are they from? So I went back to your three times great grandfather. That's John Green. He was from Buckinghamshire and he was a glass and china as in bone china dealer.
Speaker 1:And what's really interesting about that side of your family. They all had really different occupations. Nobody seemed to follow in the footsteps of their father. You go from like a glass and china dealer to a chef hospitality champion.
Speaker 2:You know because when he worked in Bath, Well food is served on glass and china it is.
Speaker 1:I suppose there's a theme and then the sons all end up in the army. So when you look at the sons on the 1911 census they're all like soldier, soldier, soldier. So I'm slightly conscious of time. I'm going to quickly just move on to your dad's side, if that's all right. So your dad is Eric Johnson, was Eric Johnson, and he was the son of Clarence William Johnson and Winifred Joyce.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Who are your grandparents In 1939, I found them living on Barbara Avenue in Liverpool. I'm going to just show you that record now, if that's all right. Was that when he was a pharmacist? Now, if that's all right, was that when he was a pharmacist? It is, yeah. So I don't know if you can just sort of make him out.
Speaker 2:I don't know what's easy for you to look at, but you can see it towards the bottom Jonathan Winifred and Johnson Clarence, retail chemist, and she was an unpaid domestic Looking after the children. Of course she was a housewife yeah, of course. Amazing. And then there's Johnson Douglas at school, which is my uncle, dougie. Yeah, that's right, who was my dad's brother?
Speaker 1:that's right. That's right. Your dad's on there. You can't see it because, um, they're highlighted just for data protection. They're highlighted out at the moment. But yeah, so you're. As you've already mentioned then, clarence was a chemist. On the 1921 census I found the family he's living with his parents and they're living at 8 Crocus Street, which is in Liverpool. Clarence is studying to be a chemist at this point.
Speaker 1:He's actually a student on the 1921 census, and he's studying at the very prestigious Liverpool School of Pharmacy, which is at Blackburn Place in Liverpool, which is just by the Georgian Quarter.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, I lived very near there when I left home in Faulkner Street and Catherine Street in the Georgian Quarter before I moved to London. One thing about Clarence my father was very pleased that we went to the same school, the Liverpool Collegiate School for Boys.
Speaker 1:A few years before the 1921 census was taken, clarence was engaged in World War I. We know this because I've got a copy of his service papers which I'll share with you. He signed up on the 5th of Feb 1916 at Scotty Road on Scotland Road that's where they were recruiting from and he was posted to the Royal Regiment of Artillery. He served throughout the war as a gunner before eventually being demobilised on the 10th of September 1919. He was injured during the war.
Speaker 2:World War I. World War I, the war to end all wars.
Speaker 1:He was gassed, yeah, they used gas. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I learnt about that at school from the poems of Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, so he was gassed and he also suffered from a gunshot wound to his leg.
Speaker 2:Oh dear. When I knew him he ran a sweet shop with his wife Winnie. He'd retired from being a chemist.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And lived around the. Edge Hill area and they had a little sweet shop, you know the sort that had a scale and jars and you would weigh out the sweets and that was their sort of retirement business.
Speaker 1:I wish I owned a sweet shop. Holly, thank you so much for coming on my podcast out of. I always ask my guests this out of everybody we spoke about today, or maybe somebody we haven't spoke about, if there was one person from your family tree that you could invite for dinner tonight, who would it be and why and what would you cook?
Speaker 2:them. Well, I'd definitely invite me great aunt Pat and question her about her show business youth as a dancer and a circus performer, because we've hit a sort of blank there because she probably had a stage name, so I'd definitely want to know, uh about her more. Um, I'd also like to have it in Mayo, south Mayo, where apparently, uh, my ancestors 500 years ago uh came from, according to the DNA sample I sent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so all your lines. So your Maguires, your McLaughlins, they all go back to Ireland.
Speaker 2:Well, and I'd serve them scouse, which is a Liverpool dish, unbelievable dish, which is basically a sort of Irish stew that I make with lamb. Yeah, can.
Speaker 1:I just say it's, it's lovely. Oh, scouse is great yeah yeah, uh, thank you so much, holly. I really, really appreciate it. Have you enjoyed it I have.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting. I'm surprised about the the whole lengthy, uh, military background. That sort of surprised me. No one seemed to be quite uh, apart from Antipas in the same profession as I've ended up in. Yeah, uh, so it's very interesting, thank you. Thank you, it must have been such a lot of work.
Speaker 1:I loved it Honestly, absolutely thoroughly loved it. You are the first tree that I've done. That was using sort of Indian research as well, which for me as a historian was brilliant. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:So that is it for this week's podcast. A huge thank you to my wonderful guest, holly johnson. I'll pop a link to his website in the description below so you can find out where he is next on tour. Additional research in this episode is done by the wonderful leslie rosa. Thank you so much, leslie. And last but not least, thank you to you, my absolutely wonderful, lovely viewers if you're watching on youtube, or listeners, if you are at all spotify, wherever you go. Thank you so much. I really do appreciate every single one of you. Thank you as well for those that have got in touch with me to tell me how much you're enjoying the podcast. Thank you so much to anybody else. If you want to reach out to me, if you want to have a chat about research, you can do so via my website, which is wwwmckaylehuecom. Thank you so much, folks. I'll see you again soon.