Unearth the Past: A family history & genealogy podcast
Step into the fascinating world of genealogy and family history with Unearth the Past, a podcast hosted by the charismatic Dr. Michala Hulme. This show masterfully blends riveting discussions, deep dives into historical contexts, and practical tips for uncovering your ancestral roots. Each week, Dr Hulme welcomes an eclectic mix of guests—musicians, actors, sports stars, and public figures—unravelling the remarkable and often surprising stories hidden within their family trees.
Beyond these compelling narratives, the podcast serves as a treasure trove for genealogy enthusiasts, spotlighting essential tools and resources for research. It also paints a vivid picture of the social and cultural landscapes that shaped family histories, exploring powerful themes like immigration, industrial revolutions, and the resilience of past generations.
If you would like to get in touch with Michala, you can do so via her website, www.michalahulme.com
If you want to help support the making of the podcast, please visit Michala's Patreon account https://www. patreon.com/DrMichalaHulme
Unearth the Past: A family history & genealogy podcast
S3 Ep4: "There would be no thieves, if there were no receivers": Unearthing the Past with the Blossoms Joe Donovan
Join us on an extraordinary journey as Michala sits down with Joe Donovan from the band Blossoms, fresh off celebrating their fourth UK number-one album. Joe's infectious enthusiasm brings to life the band's achievements and artistic endeavours, setting the stage for a remarkable narrative.
We then meander through Joe's family history, uncovering tales that span continents and centuries. From a family-owned haberdashery in Stockport to Jeremiah's stint in Knutsford prison, we start by following the Donovan line back over 200 years.
The story continues as we delve into the sobering case of William Skerritt in 1838, offering a bleak reflection on the Victorian justice system. As we stitch together these ancestral threads, we encounter a stonemason who led a double life, abandoning his British roots to forge a new path in New York, and stories of redemption, like Burgoyne Southward's transformation from a housebreaker to a night watchman. Don't miss this enthralling episode filled with music and history.
Links
Dr Michala Hulme
The Blossoms
Power of One
Hello and welcome back to Unearth the Past, a family history and genealogy podcast where we delve into the lives of interesting people. I'm Dr Michaela Hulme and this week is part two of our Blossoms special, and can I just say a huge congratulations to the band, who have just celebrated their fourth UK number one album. Well done, lads, thoroughly, thoroughly deserved. It's a great album, gary. If you haven't listened to it or bought it, go out and get it right this second. So that brings me nicely on to this week's guest. He is insanely talented and I would say he's actually got the best laugh in the band. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome, welcome to the podcast, the brilliant Jo Donovan.
Speaker 1:Jo Donovan thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 2:No thanks for having me. I'm so excited. I've just come back from holiday and Sophia will tell you that she was like honestly, you've not shut up about anything apart from doing this. I was like I can't wait for it. I'm so excited. I was trying to like, I wanted to do like look myself, but I was also like I don't want to look at it at all.
Speaker 1:No, don't. Yeah, I didn't. Don't worry Because he knows, if he did, I'd have told him off.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Before we start, we have to mention Gary.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because there are going to be people listening to this.
Speaker 2:Who think what is going on?
Speaker 1:with the Bl a gorilla everywhere? And why is there loads of flags at Glastonbury saying who would name their album? Gary, that would be you yeah, do you know?
Speaker 2:we were up to like one o'clock in the morning spray painting them flags.
Speaker 1:I saw that they were literally handmade yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you, got one of them. You're pretty special yeah do you know?
Speaker 2:we had the idea it was actually Tom's wife, my sister.
Speaker 2:Katie, my sister katie, it was her idea, right and we're like it's such a good idea, we need to do it. So we tried to get all the flags made and, yeah, basically no one could turn it around that fast. We were like we're gonna have to do it ourselves. And we're like, how are we gonna do it? And then miles was like, oh, we could stencil it. I was like what a genius idea. So, yeah, we got managed to go to the drum company where I get my drums made. They're in stockport. They've got this big laser cutter so they cut the stencil out for us. Then, yeah, we just bought some spray paint from B&Q. There we were.
Speaker 1:I was so impressed.
Speaker 2:We were my trainers, though, to be fair there's no end to your talent. There's no end, oh that's not very nice, it's quite odd.
Speaker 1:I tell you what it really difficult. People are going to think it's easy, but it's hard, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I've recently just done a house up me and Sphere found our dream house, sort of blah blah blah done it all up. We did a lot of it ourselves and are you still together after that? Can you believe?
Speaker 2:it's definitely the biggest test of trust and relationship it's hard when you don't have a kitchen and stuff and you just like the idea of looking off takeaways is a dead fun and like, oh my god, like guilt-free takeaways and it lasts about two days. You're like I cannot do this anymore. You know what I mean. Like I need yes, I just want some fresh food right, can we start?
Speaker 1:yeah please, because we have got so much to get through I'm so excited so I have given you a copy of the tree just for you to look at at any point, because we're going to be going through it at speed and there's a lot to get through. So please feel free to have that somewhere where you can see. So I'm going to start, then, with your dad's side of the tree okay, donovan's the donovan's side of your tree.
Speaker 1:Now, what do you know about the donovan? Now, I know, because we've spoken on the phone yeah, and this is my childhood that your family owned a shop on Castle Street in Edgley.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the trimming centre.
Speaker 1:The trimming centre. My mum's going to be watching this now going they're trimming Really.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my mum and dad well, my dad, my nana and granddad owned a haberdashery shop.
Speaker 1:Right, okay.
Speaker 2:That's the trimming centre and sold like buttons, and my dad, I think he started off as a market stall just on Stockport Market, really yeah, and then they got enough money together to then buy the shop. They were quite well off, as I remember, like they lived in like a nice house in Offerton near the Strawberry Gardens. There's like a few houses there on that same road a bit further up and they're really like my dad was. Like my dad says, when he was a kid. I mean he was like well, he's gone like cruises and stuff as, and obviously that's like quite bougie now.
Speaker 1:It's funny you should say that because the first record I have for your granddad yeah, his name is alan alan. It's from 1958 and I'm just going to show you this record. It's going to say something like oh, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It says are you nervous? Yeah, because he was a bit. He was funny but also a bit cheeky.
Speaker 1:Right. I don't know if you can make out at the top what it might be.
Speaker 2:British Commonwealth. I don't know a clue what it oh, oh, so it's the cruise thing. It's obviously a boat.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Landing the port of Liverpool From Africa.
Speaker 1:Yes, nigeria. Yeah, do you know what, weirdly, I don't know. Yeah, port of.
Speaker 2:Liverpool from Africa? Yes, nigeria, yeah, do you know what? Weirdly, I don't know. Yeah, there's been my dad's mentioned every now and then. Or, like my grandad, works a lot overseas right so his name you scroll down yeah. Donovan Allen Donovan. Joan Donovan David. So that's obviously that's my dad's oldest brother. Wow, yeah, stockport, joan Donovan David. So that's obviously my dad's oldest brother. Wow, yeah, stockport 22 Thomas Street, edgley Railway workshop foreman. So that was his job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that was his job.
Speaker 2:What is that? What's a railway workshop foreman?
Speaker 1:A foreman is obviously somebody who's managing a, managing a group of people, right? Yeah?
Speaker 2:so yeah, no because I know my granddad was my granddad really good like engineer. He was a bit of like a jack. Yeah, he had like an engineering background, I think. Because like when I remember when I was little going into his shed and there was like tools and stuff, I'd pick him up and he'd be like I made that. You know what I mean. I was like what it looks like a proper tool, do you mean? Yeah, exactly, and he so I know he did a lot of stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But have you inherited any of those skills?
Speaker 2:yes, I think if you spoke to people in my family or like in the band, they'd be like if you need something doing or like, logically yeah it's me, do you know? I mean like there's some things like weirdly, and this sounds counterintuitive, but like musically I'm not that talented. Do you know what I'm meaning?
Speaker 1:he is. He's a liar. No, I'm not, and I say that I've watched him play the drums, yeah and that's what.
Speaker 2:No, and it's weird because I've never done a drum lesson what no, but then none of us in the band have ever done a lesson like we always.
Speaker 1:You know what I did at Bromwell High. Go on the violin, the class, that's a better instrument, honestly my mum must have spent a few hundred quid on this violin Literally gave it up after three weeks. I was like this is really hard. Oh, I can't do this. I did that with a guitar, did you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I picked up a guitar.
Speaker 1:Mum and dad bought me like that, you know, like guitar and amp things because I was actually having a debate the other day about what is the hardest instrument to play right, and I think the drums is solid do you think it is?
Speaker 2:I think I think you just try every instrument until one that hits you naturally. Yeah, and that's like drumming to me is so it feels so natural, let's do them thingy feels and don't go wrong. There's certain bits that feel very unnatural, but right, there's some bits that it doesn't really as an instrument, but like trying do chords and stuff. Like I can play a few chords now on the guitar but it took me so it didn't hit me. I had to really sit down and want to learn guitar and obviously I can't play guitar. Still, I can just play like Wonderwall or something.
Speaker 1:Is there any instrument that you would love to play that you don't play?
Speaker 2:Um, I don't, maybe it's the guitar, it is the guitar. But then weirdly, I say I love drums and I love being a drummer yeah but if I weren't in a band, I wouldn't be a drummer do you not think, though, that's like the sexy thing that's? What I love. I love being in a band. Like being in a band for me is like that's what I want when I wanted to be in a band, yeah. I love being with my best mates yeah was five. It's like a gang in a band.
Speaker 1:That's my thing and I watch your podcast. It's a great podcast, by the way. Check it out on after this obviously, obviously it's a brilliant podcast thank you but you definitely see the camaraderie, yeah, the tightness of your group.
Speaker 2:I think that's why we. That was one of the biggest things, because I wanted to do the podcast. Podcast was like my idea yeah, I think it was just because I was like. You know, we're like you don't really see a lot, of, a lot of bands quite like to keep themselves quite closed and closed off and quite mysterious, which is cool, and I like that about bands yeah but we're also like the opposite of that, where we're like very open and very like silly it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that about you lot. We're called arm and gary well, not only that, you feel like personal. Do you know what I mean? I feel like you're my mate yeah obviously they are, but I feel like no, no again.
Speaker 2:No, that's that's a nice thing. I think that's that is one of the things, as well, though, that we want to do. Yeah, because I think it's nice to be like, and it's one of the things that I love like, say, arctic monkeys, for example yeah, and they're.
Speaker 2:They're like the opposite, where it's like. It's like it's like quite mysterious, quite closed off. You never know where they are. Do you know what I mean? It's all like and it's all very cool, but also I loved any little bit. I'm always like, oh, when they used to do a little, my elders used to do the part, I just listen to that. So with those I was like I'd like, yeah, I thought it was cool.
Speaker 1:Right, do not let me talk again. Just let me tell you I've got so much to get through, right, I'm going to just motor on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, so that was them coming back from Nigeria.
Speaker 1:So that was them in Nigeria. I managed to go back further than that. So in 1939, just before the war, I've got your granddad on another record and this is called the 1939 Register. And this is called the 1939 register, and if you scroll down right to the bottom, you should just see his name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh God, that's with all the Donovans are there Wow?
Speaker 1:So that's just before the war.
Speaker 2:So that's 20.
Speaker 1:So they are living, as they say, on Thompsonompson street number 20, which is in edgley. His parents, alan's parents, which you can make up for the 1939 register are uh, which will be your great-grandparents are william, francis donovan and annie gratton. Remember the name gratton, because we're going to come back to that. Grattan, now William Francis Donovan and Annie Grattan. They married in Bollington on the 3rd of September 1921. And I have their marriage certificate from 1921 if you'd like to see it.
Speaker 2:Bollington as well. That's not far White nuns.
Speaker 1:Not far at all. Wow, so I don't know if you can make out any of those words. I know rubbish, I know I can. I just say I know the hands of rat.
Speaker 2:Handwriting is appalling as well, but yeah, it's quite beautiful. I wish my handwriting was like that. Mine's terrible, mine like you can't read and looks horrible. At least this has got one. Do you know what I mean? Rank or profession? Inquisitor is that?
Speaker 1:Let me have a look. Let me have a look. I can't. So we've got William Francis Donovan. He's 24 years old, he is a bachelor, which means that he's not married. He's an engineer. His dad is also called William Francis Donovan and he is a blacksmith striker, so not on horses. He's working in, probably like metal factories, and things like that. Then we've got Annie Gratton, she's 31. Her dad is John Gratton and he is a stone sawyer.
Speaker 2:Like a stonemason.
Speaker 1:Like basically a stonemason.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And we're going to come back to Annie Gretton, but I want to draw your attention to John Gretton stonemason.
Speaker 2:We're going to come back and revisit that Okay, but let's keep going with the darkness. So already they're quite hands-on jobs, but quite Very good with their hands. Yeah, but I was going to say it's not just like foreman or like do you know what I mean, it's quite like Skilled, yeah, yeah, skilled jobs. It's interesting that.
Speaker 1:In 1911,. William Francis Donovan is living at 31 York Street in Edgley and he's living with his parents and his parents are called William Francis Senior and Sarah Ann Sharples. They're your great-great-grandparents. I have a picture if you'd like to see it. See this picture here. Can I pick it up? Yeah, that's York Street in Edgley's.
Speaker 2:Is that still the street now?
Speaker 1:No, well, I think the street might be there, but the houses have gone.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:The houses weren't during slum clearances. God, so that's York Street. Okay, can you describe that for anybody?
Speaker 2:It's just a very stereotypical northern terrace, yeah, like proper factory housing, I'd say. Which is weird, because if you were saying he was, well, he was an engineer, wasn't he?
Speaker 1:yeah, so his son was an engineer, dad was a blacksmith striker, so we think that his dad worked some iron something to do with that.
Speaker 2:So would that have been in some sort of factory? Then I reckon yeah, and that's why obviously that makes it explains the housing situation right. So even though it's a skilled job and a skilled thingy, I mean it still was like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a skilled labour, isn't it almost?
Speaker 2:There's me thinking I might have been a royal.
Speaker 1:So you wanted to be the first band member. That was like you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, I knew it wasn't going to happen, but good people right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:So they're living on York Street. So, as I've mentioned, his parents are William Francis Senior, also called William Francis, and Sarah Ann Sharples. So they would be your great, great grandparents. I've got a copy of their marriage certificate from 1873 if you would like to see it. God, yeah, 1873, and you would like to see it.
Speaker 2:God yeah, 1873, and you've got a copy 1873.
Speaker 1:So I don't know if you can see that there.
Speaker 2:Oh, the handwriting's improved a bit, hasn't it? I thought it was a piano then.
Speaker 1:So you should make out from that record. I don't know if you can see that his dad is called Jeremiah Donovan. Where is that? So scroll right across the top.
Speaker 2:Oh, sorry, yeah, Ah, jeremiah Donovan, jeremiah, what a name, I know. Was that a common name?
Speaker 1:It was quite common, but it's the fact. You go from William Francis, william Francis, and then we go from Jeremiah Jeremiah he and Norris Heaton, norris, yeah wow, so that's still.
Speaker 2:So what 18?
Speaker 1:73 and we still Stockport still Stockport Burnidge as well, yeah which is pretty much Stockport innit it's pretty much Stockport.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did you think the Donovans would be Stockport, stopport, stopport yeah yeah yeah, I think I always knew um, like when I've heard my mum and dad talking or we've almost all it's. There's never been anyone anything like oh, and they came over from I don't know somewhere else. It was always just been stopport, edgley, stopport, you know.
Speaker 1:I mean yeah so jeremiah donovan, your great, great great grandfather, was born in 1825 in heen, norris, and he was a shoemaker Again, skilled job using your hands. We have that throughout the Donovans right. In 1846, he marries Eliza Skerritt and they get married at the cathedral in Manchester. Oh the one.
Speaker 2:I drove past that on the way here.
Speaker 1:Did you? Yeah, so they get married at the cathedral in Manchester. Now, on the 1851 census, Eliza is living with your great-great-grandfather, William Francis but he also goes by the name of Frank on a court off Adlington Square which is in Stockport. I'm going to show you that now. I'm going to show you a picture of that. So this is 1851. Yeah, so this is where Frank is living with his mum in 1851.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's tiny, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, now they're only occupying two rooms.
Speaker 2:Okay, so like obviously, at the time everyone was squeezed into any sort of Everyone was squeezed in back-to-back housing. So it was just him and his mum in there.
Speaker 1:Just him and his mum.
Speaker 2:Well into the two rooms.
Speaker 1:So there's somebody missing there, and that's Jeremiah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm like thinking where is Jeremiah?
Speaker 2:So obviously something's happened to Jeremiah.
Speaker 1:So I find Jeremiah on the census in 1851, but he is not living with his wife and his son. He is in Knutsford and I don't know if you can make out that word at the top there.
Speaker 2:Prisoner. Oh, Jeremiah was naughty.
Speaker 1:So Jeremiah is in Knutsford Prison.
Speaker 2:And that's Knutsford Prison.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is that still a building now? It is, and do you know what he did?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:No know what he did. No, really no. So he did. So I don't know what he did, but I can tell you that I think he's in and out of prison throughout the 1850s and on the 1861 census. She is living with her family, the Skerritts, and he's not on the census.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So he goes missing again. I don't know where he is on that census I actually can't find him full stop. But I know he's in prison in Knutsford.
Speaker 2:Right, so these are my great.
Speaker 1:Sorry if you.
Speaker 2:Oh, my right, so Donovan. So Jeremiah is your great, great great great great grandfather yeah, so he was naughty he does get released from prison just of your like. What was the thing that commonly would?
Speaker 1:be. I mean, I thought this wasn't so open. Yeah, yeah, but would the it's not murder?
Speaker 2:yeah, that way yeah, well, I was good. That's what I mean. I was like is the reason you can't find anything about it because it's like, say, not in the newspaper or do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's not in the newspaper. I've searched the newspaper, but it's not in the newspaper.
Speaker 2:So I think, it's petty crime.
Speaker 1:I know he comes out because he has a couple of other children right, so he does come out.
Speaker 2:With fingers, yeah.
Speaker 1:Now I do find him on another census, a later census, in 1871, and he's listed himself as a widow and he's remarried.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I haven't found any evidence that Eliza has passed away. She may have passed away, maybe she remarried, and it's just not come to me. But he's listed as a widow and he remarries a lady called Mary Burns. He dies in 1877. Now I'm going to go back just slightly. I'm going to show you Eliza's marriage to Jeremiah. So Eliza's scary marriage to Jeremiah.
Speaker 2:I can't believe you're not in prison.
Speaker 1:So, as I've mentioned, they got married at Manchester Cathedral.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so on the bottom row you should see Eliza Skerritt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, age.
Speaker 1:And I don't know if you can make out the name of her father.
Speaker 2:Willow, william Willow, obviously not Willow. Well, do you want me?
Speaker 1:since jeremiah, now my mind's open to any name. Where is it going?
Speaker 2:so what does he say? What?
Speaker 1:now she calls him a waste dealer.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna pick up on that now waste dealer. So that's something to do with sewage.
Speaker 1:That makes you think of waste, like either rubbish or so that is a posh way of saying he's basically like a rag and bone man. Do you remember when you were a kid and you used to grab a?
Speaker 2:rag and bone. Yeah, yeah, yeah On the horse and cart. Yeah, any old iron, that's it.
Speaker 1:You're there, he basically collects waste. That's it.
Speaker 2:you're there, he basically collects waste he just thought about the environment straight early doors.
Speaker 1:He just wanted to recycle straight away however in 1838 he appears in the local newspaper and that's because five lads called two brothers, William and John Port, James Partington, Enoch Hyde and Thomas Clarkson stole some iron from Park Mills yard in Stockport. Now the lads hid the iron under Portwood Bridge and then took it to William Skerritt and another iron dealer called Joseph Clark. The youngest of the Port brothers took actually two lots of iron to William and he bought the iron. However, he also got offered a third lot which she refused. I think he was a bit concerned about where the iron had come from and said look, I'm not going to accept anymore. I'll only accept it if it comes from your dad.
Speaker 2:So, in other words, I want to know it's yeah, legit sort of thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:However, the police come and raid Skerritt's yard and they also raid another man called Clark's yard, and they find the stolen iron.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You see, where this is going. So this then goes to trial at Knotsford prison court. Well, prison yeah, it's a really serious case. It's so serious that the mayor and the magistrate are presiding over the trial of what's happening for a bit of iron, over a bit of iron. Now, clark, who, who was the other man? Who who was also a dealer, yeah right, who did sold to had a couple of what you'd say.
Speaker 1:Maybe distinguished people speak on his behalf right verified his character, said you know, he's a really good person oh yeah, I've been to his house with dinner yeah, went down the naivety route. You know, he's only just started dealing in iron and he wasn't aware that they were stolen and all that. Anyway, alderman slack, who's presiding over who's a magistrate, with the mayor basically discharged him, clark and said you know what, fair enough, they let him go but, they didn't do that with william skerry. Of course he didn't, of course he didn't the that with William Skerritt?
Speaker 1:Of course they didn't. Of course they didn't. The magistrate said if there was no receivers there would be no thieves. Now the reporter I'm getting quite angry now. Now the reporter in the newspaper at the time is puzzled by this, and even the reporter who's writing for the local press says they really don't understand both. What Skerritt did and Clark did was identical, right, identical, and Clark gets off and Skerritt and I know because I found the newspaper articles, by the way, which you will get on two separate occasions helped the police and alerted them to goods that were stolen and he turned down the third lot right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he had previous for helping the police, right oh sorry, on a separate occasion, on separate occasions uncovering stolen goods. You know, and, and like what you said, he didn't buy the third lot, he refused it, yeah and he was then it's hard, isn't it?
Speaker 2:because then if someone comes up to revine, that's his job, he's going to take it, but but then if he, then he smelts him and goes I'm not going to buy anymore, because yeah, and he has preview for helping the police.
Speaker 1:So the trial takes place in Knutsford on the 20th of March 1838. William is found guilty and he's sentenced to seven years transportation.
Speaker 2:What's.
Speaker 1:So transportation is when you are basically sent to Australia.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:So he's found guilty and he gets seven years' transportation. Bear in mind he's never been in prison before, right, so he's never been in prison before. So he's transferred from Knutsford and he's transferred to what's called a Hulk ship, which is a ship that's sat in a dock near London, and you stay on this hulk ship, which is like a floating prison, until you are transported to Australia, and that takes months by the way, is it just like when the ship's full it goes?
Speaker 1:basically right. So you are then put on a ship. You are transported to Australia, which takes months. If you survive the journey, that's a miracle. Then, when you get there, you're put to work. So you're building roads right, you are building infrastructure. He gets put on a Hulk ship. He was on that Hulk ship for three and a half years. He would have woken up at five o'clock, he would have spent his whole time shackled and he would have worked till well into the evening. After three and a half years on board the hulk ship, he gets a pardon and he's pardoned on the 30th of october 1841.
Speaker 1:I've got a picture of the hulk ship that he was on really yeah, so this is a picture of the hulk ship that he was on, really yeah.
Speaker 2:So this is a picture of the Hulk ship that he was on. It's mad because it's like to describe it. It's not what I had in my head.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:It's quite like fantasize and dreamlike, I'd say. Do you know what I mean? Like sails and like it almost looks like a pirate ship. Do you know what I mean? Like sails and like it almost looks like a like a pirate ship? Do you know what I mean? It's the ship that you sort of look at as a kid. Obviously, I can imagine a completely different.
Speaker 1:Where we know it's hell on earth.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly, yeah, I can never so what I need to know more about the pardoning.
Speaker 1:So he gets pardoned on the 30th of October 1841, I imagine, because for me it feels like an injustice, right.
Speaker 2:It feels like he should have never have been in that situation anyway. That seems like a harsh sentence as well for something.
Speaker 1:Well, look, stealing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, stealing.
Speaker 1:In those days it had not like now, but the sentences were really harsh for stealing. He was reunited with his family and he died of liver disease in 1845 so that's two years, so that's four years after he's reunited with his family, he dies of liver disease. Um, I know he's reunited with his family because his son, joseph, is present at the time of death. Every quarter the authorities basically released an inventory of everybody's on these ships. I've got all those records for you to see at a time that's convenient for you.
Speaker 1:He comes across as very healthy, very fit guy when he's on board the ship. His character is good, but he he does get a pardon. He doesn't go to australia. But, as I say, it takes three and a half years, how, why would the pardon have come in?
Speaker 2:would that have been people at home, I think so paining about it and saying, and other people getting involved, being like, how, like, just sort of the outrage of it yeah, I think you know he did help the police.
Speaker 1:As I said, I've got those articles right and and a guy who did exactly the same of him was discharged and there's nothing, at all nothing at all, and then yeah, the guy's like do you go to australia or you get, you get a
Speaker 1:whole ship three and a half years, which must have been hell on earth. Sorry to interrupt the podcast and it will be back in just a minute, but I would like to take the time to talk to you about an organization that is really close to my heart, and that is the Power of One. The Power of One is a non-profit organization founded by the fabulous Samantha Hutchinson, which supports women across the world who work in the animal welfare community. There are currently thousands of women across the globe who are fighting the animal welfare community. There are currently thousands of women across the globe who are fighting to improve the lives of animals and make their communities safer by reducing the spread of disease. They are working really hard to reduce the number of animals on the street through rescue, providing rehabilitation, rehoming and spray and neutering campaigns. They are also raising awareness through education in local schools and improving public perceptions of the cities, towns and countries in which they live. Now, this industry relies almost exclusively on public donations, and many women risk their livelihoods and in some cases even their lives, just to be a part of it. Funding helps to create jobs. It supports families and local businesses and provides access to education and much needed mental health support. If you get a chance and look, I know times are hard, but if you get a chance, please just check out the Paravon website I've put the details in the podcast description and even just tell people about this organisation, this wonderful organisation, and what they are doing to help animals and especially dogs and if you know me, you know all of my dogs around the world.
Speaker 1:Now back to the podcast. I want to go back a bit right. So I mentioned to you, didn't I? Your great granddad, william Francis, married Annie Grattan in 1921. They married in Bollington. I've mentioned. What we got from that marriage certificate was that her dad was called John Grattan and he was deceased at the time of their marriage, and he was deceased at the time of their marriage. What you picked up on which is what I wanted you to pick up on was the fact her dad was a stonemason, right, and I want you to remember that. Now Annie's mum is called Elizabeth Goodwin and she was born in 1866. And she was three years younger than John.
Speaker 1:John, your great-great-grandad, was born in Bollington in 1863. And at the age of seven he was working in a rope yard and by the age of 18, he was working as a labourer in a stone quarry. Now, in 1885, he marries your great-great-grandmother Elizabeth Goodwin at the parish church in Presbury and I have them on the 1891 census. They are obviously married, they're living together and by this point they have three children. One of those children is Annie, who would be your great-grandmother. The next census I have for the family after that is the 1901 census. The Grattons are now living on Hearst Lane, which is in Bollington, but there is a notable absentee and that is your great-great-grandfather John John Gratton, the stonemason.
Speaker 2:It's not on it.
Speaker 1:Gone, gone, he vanishes Gone.
Speaker 2:Nothing, no.
Speaker 1:Nothing he doesn. Gone, he vanishes gone. Nothing, no, nothing. He doesn't die. He's not on any british census at all right he literally disappears overnight in thinner, but I do find him I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that pause. Did you like that? Yeah?
Speaker 1:but I do find him. I find him on a ship, on a Cunard ship called Campania, which left Liverpool and arrived in New York in 1896. Wow, I love New York. So he just went, so he just disappears.
Speaker 2:So he just went to New York.
Speaker 1:So you won't be able to make this out because the handwriting is atrocious, but this is the record that I found him on. The reason that I found him was because of his age, because of his job and because of where he was from. The stonemason was the key ah, so that's how you that's how I tracked him.
Speaker 2:So in 1896 we find him basically arriving in New York god, it's like them, like if they'd seen the films you would have got off and then, like everyone would have queued up yeah oh god, I don't't even be able to find his name, will I?
Speaker 2:oh, he's right at the bottom, isn't he? Yeah, intended destiny. It just says his intended destiny was New York, new York. So he didn't. He literally was like I'm going to New York and that's it. Yeah, god, so he, wow. It's weird because that's the first bit where it's like stop Paul. It's weird because that's the first bit where it's like stop Paul, edgley, jim Presby, bollington. It's all like so, stop God. And he got out and went to New York. But well, let's say he got out, mate. I'm sort of romanticising this. He's left a family or he's left his wife.
Speaker 2:And kids and kids, just to go.
Speaker 1:To New York. Do you want to know what happens to him in new york? Yeah, so he goes to new york. He is on board the cunard ship, the campania.
Speaker 2:I've got a picture of it if you want to see. Yeah, 100 is this. Am I going to romanticize this ship as well?
Speaker 1:so this is I imagine so this is the ship in liverpool.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, he could Wow.
Speaker 1:He could have been in that crowd. It's the right time. Really, let's say yes so this ship is like a mini Titanic vibe. This was the most luxurious ship at the time.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:So you're probably wondering then what happens to him in new york. Yeah well, by 1910 he's no longer a stonemason, he has a farm and he's living in madison county in new york. He's also married oh, okay to a lady called pearl moat, who is 17 years younger than him, and they have three children edith, john and margaret we've got a song called edith machinist.
Speaker 2:That's weird now, just to point out some point out the obvious he's still married in england yeah, so he's a bigamist yeah, he's just gone seen a bit yeah it's this, it's the taking off thing. That's mad, isn't it? It's the yeah it's the but also, like you said. So he was just a stonemason, so he wasn't like he's a stonemason, so he's like one. How's he got the money for this?
Speaker 1:yeah, and he's just gone and he's just disappeared.
Speaker 2:He's been like just gone. So they would have known. Obviously nothing, nothing about it. This would have been like he's just disappeared they don't know if he's dead, they don't know if he's a lot so on that census, uh, on the 1901, his wife back here, yeah, puts that she is married.
Speaker 1:On the next census she's a widow, so she thinks he's died.
Speaker 2:She thinks he's died, he's not died he's out there living the best life in new york so on a farm he gets married.
Speaker 1:He has three children. He does seem to really thrive in new york right he was elected onto the city council of Oneida on two occasions. He was also the highways commissioner. He was a member of the Elks, which was like our Freemasons. He dies on the 28th of November 1936, aged 72, and he's buried in Stockbridge Cemetery, new York. I've got a picture of his grave if you'd like to see.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. What the hell. So he's basically lived a complete double life, like he's gone from like a stonemason to like Stockport Terrace House vibes to just going to New York and basically sitting and being treated like a counselor in a yeah, so that is his grave next to pearls. Oh, so he's I mean that's so we stayed with at least he stayed with pearl yeah, did she die before him?
Speaker 1:so she died before him.
Speaker 2:Yeah wow, I'm 31, 19, I want to. I want to. I want to say it's sad, but I sort of like I've also got a bit of like why did you? It's a funny thing yeah, you're just like I'm happy. I'm sort of happy because then there's flip sides into it. There's a side where you're like, look, he's gone away, he's met someone who he obviously loved very much and he's very happy. He could have not been happy here, yeah. But then there's no excuse for taking off like that, is there?
Speaker 1:It's a coward's way to do it. Do you want to see what he looks like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. So this is Pearl.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, because obviously he's got God. He doesn't look anything like me, does he? Thankfully, that's mad, I just find it. I find it so weird that one there's like really loose relatives in like New York probably not, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:like they're very active oh really yeah, his son and and family are very active. Yeah, wow yeah, and I don't think they knew until they started researching that he had another family in England, because I've seen, wow, yeah, and I don't think they knew until they started researching that he had another family in England, because I've seen all his documentation in America no point, as he says. Obviously he's not going to say he's married, but he's been married.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he basically did that. He probably went over and was like Probably as a single man. Yeah, as like a never.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Poor Pearl.
Speaker 1:So the Pearl was 17 years younger than him yeah, she was quite a bit younger than him, but I want to keep going, if that's alright yeah, please, and it's a lot to take in right, so we're going to keep going yeah, I'm weird with him.
Speaker 2:Like there's some parts that I admire but there's some parts I really just like don't like about it at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we haven't really spoke. That you left behind. Yeah, um, so her name is elizabeth goodwin and her parents, which would be your great, great, great grandparents, are called elizabeth robinson and joseph goodwin. Before I carry on, I want to ask you a question. Okay, do you like walking?
Speaker 2:I love hiking do you and?
Speaker 1:love walking okay, we have a mac forest. Yeah, I love my forest do you and love walking.
Speaker 2:Okay, have you ever been to Mac Forest? Yeah, I love Mac Forest Do you the 10k road.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, if I told you that your great-great-great-grandparents had a farm in Mac Forest, 35 acres 35 acres. And both them and their parents are buried in the little chapel in Mac Forest. Really yeah, oh, so are buried in the little chapel in Mac Forest? Really?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, so it's in the blood.
Speaker 1:It's in your blood, so when you oh, so why haven't we got it?
Speaker 2:now I don't know Were you mean yeah, exactly. Yeah, like I'm sort of like I'm happy that he enjoyed the outdoors like I do, but also, why aren't you cream all of it? Yeah, he had a farm, 35 acres, so he had a farm.
Speaker 1:I went up to the chapel and their grave is in the chapel. Really, yeah. So next time you go up to Mac Forest, I want you to do me a favour, right, I want you to go up the road and when you get to the top, I want you to turn left. Follow it down and you'll come to the most beautiful chapel in the middle of nowhere. Down and you'll come to the most beautiful chapel in the middle of nowhere and that's where your great, great great grandparents are buried, so that and your great, great, great great grandparents are buried, the good oh so all of us, the good winds are in there and the good winds are in there, and their children so that would have just been.
Speaker 1:That would have been their farmhouse, and they passed it down to them yeah, well, they all, they all lived, they all grew up, they all lived in that area. So they move farmhouses, they. They seem to go from, judging by their acreage, like bigger and better. So they start off with like eight acres, then, I think, they go to 15 and then they end up with 35 acres. Sort of expanding the business You're probably walking through your ancestors' fields when you grow up there.
Speaker 2:So nice, but also so annoying. I'm nice, but also so annoying. I'm living, yeah, so next time I'm in him if a father comes like get out, I'll be like I own this. Yeah, I've got some sort of right?
Speaker 1:exactly no way oh god, that's incredible yeah, so let's go on to your mum's side. Yeah, now um so hopley to the hopley side. Now we're going to go back slightly. So your mum's grandparents? Yeah, john Hopley and Priscilla Fernley. Priscilla's parents were John Fernley and Sophia Southwood.
Speaker 2:That's the one like Sophia, because my fiancé is called Sophia. Do you know what I mean? It's quite a popular name now, but it wasn't yeah.
Speaker 1:So Sophia Southwood, it wasn't, yeah, yeah. So, um, sophia southwood, her dad, sophia's dad, your three times great grandfather was joseph southwood sorry, south ward and his dad and the reason I mentioned him is because he's got the best name I've ever heard of was called bergon joseph southwood, but bergon joseph southwood.
Speaker 2:Southwood, burgon.
Speaker 1:But Burgon Joseph Southwood, who was born in 1807 in Manchester, Burgon. I did find him on a record that you might be quite interested in. Oh God, here we go.
Speaker 2:So Burgon, and then we've got Jemire on the other side. Right, so and this dog has got some mad names floating about on it, hasn't it?
Speaker 1:So this is a record from 1841. And I don't know if you can figure him out. He's the third one down. I don't know if you can figure out what this record is.
Speaker 2:So he's in Lancaster, a person charged with offences. Here we go again. So he's the third one down Discharged without trial.
Speaker 1:Oh no, he was charged.
Speaker 2:Oh, of course he was. What did he do then? Housebreaking, oh yeah, it says that oh, so, it's the accomplices. So he's not the only one.
Speaker 1:No, there's three of them. So he's charged with housebreaking and he gets 18 months hard labour in prison.
Speaker 2:What Someone else is getting. Someone got transportation for 10 years. Oh sorry, that might be another crime.
Speaker 1:That's another crime, right, okay, fair enough, then.
Speaker 2:I mean that sort of powder coat's all. It's not that bad, he's not as bad as him. He's going to the Hulk shifts that guy. So why is he doing that at that age? Because the other lad was 32 and 24.
Speaker 1:But he does turn his life around.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:He does turn his life around and I've got him on another record for you, which is the 1851 census.
Speaker 2:So this would have been 20.
Speaker 1:So this was 41.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He's in prison for housebreaking by 51,. I don't know if you can make out what he's doing for a job. He's just there. If you follow it across, that's what he's doing for a job Night watchman.
Speaker 2:Ah, sorry, yeah, I was reading that N as a H. I thought yeah, I thought you would have been A night watchman. So what? In as a haver, I thought yeah, I thought you would have been A night watchman, so what? In Manchester?
Speaker 1:So a night watchman was basically the police.
Speaker 2:So he's gone from just being like, well, the house breaking thing's weird, I find weird. Well, I find weird that they got, because what they got ate, so they didn't rob anything. So they're obviously trying to do something and didn't get, didn't go as far as steal or no, so I think they broke into the house, but they obviously didn't steal anything.
Speaker 1:But it's house breaking might be with intense steal, maybe they got rumble before.
Speaker 2:You don't know. But then he, then now he's working, obviously doing the night shifts.
Speaker 1:So basically, yeah, the night watchman was like the precursor to what we think of today as the modern day police, and they would literally patrol the streets at night, people breaking in yeah, making sure people were not breaking in houses. They would have a lantern with them, the truncheon, and they would also have something called a rattleattle. And I've brought you a rattle. Now I will say this I don't, you might want to take your headphones off, because if he does this you're probably going to end up deaf. So I don't know if you're going to rattle it round. Right, I'll do it, that's it.
Speaker 2:How good's that.
Speaker 1:That's a sound. That isn't it. See, if only they had them at Glastonbury.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good, so Is that a warm peep? Obviously, if you see someone, that's just to scare them off.
Speaker 1:So he would have had a uniform, a very distinct uniform, with his number on the back. He would have had a truncheon, his rattle, some of them even had swords with them, and yeah, he could have picked a sword, but he picked a rattle.
Speaker 2:That's how I like that.
Speaker 1:But he was a night watchman.
Speaker 2:Wow. So I wonder if that's just purely based off the fact that he used to I don't know, because he had done it before, because he had robbed he sort of I don't know.
Speaker 1:They obviously felt character-wise, that he was the sort of person that was trustworthy enough to become a night watchman.
Speaker 2:And also had done it, so knows a bit more about it also.
Speaker 1:Joe, that is it. That is the end of our journey today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you one question? Yeah, it's the question I ask all my guests. If you could, have dinner tonight with anybody from your family tree, right? Who would it be and why and what would you cook them?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm terrible at cooking.
Speaker 1:Are you?
Speaker 2:I'm awful.
Speaker 1:Are you?
Speaker 2:But I do like cooking pasta.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I do like cooking pasta.
Speaker 1:I love Italy, so I'd cook some sort of Italian dish and maybe I want to speak to Grattan John.
Speaker 2:Grattan, john Grattan. Yeah, just because I'd want to know why you went, because, like I say, I think that side of it just leaving and setting up is terrible.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I don't know. I want to know his reasoning behind it. I mean, that's the biggest question for all. Now I'm like why did you do that? Because, like I said, and just without any, without saying anything to them, like without saying, and they obviously believed.
Speaker 1:They obviously thought he died yeah you know, because on, as I say, the 1901, his wife elizabeth is put. She's married, but then by 1911, on the next census, 10 years later, she's put his deceased. We know he's not deceased. Yeah, we know he's.
Speaker 2:And even like she didn't move on no, she never married. No and that's sad yeah because she might have just she might have felt guilt about that because, yeah, you know, I mean she might have thought I don't know. I think in a in a dark way, that's the person who I'd want to sit down with, yeah, and just be like why and what? It's almost a grilling actually. I won't cook anything. I mean you don't deserve it. I thought a grilling first.
Speaker 1:I think for me as well. I'd have to have a little chat with jeremiah why, did you get locked up?
Speaker 2:yeah. Why have you been up been up to yeah, or constantly as well?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's in and out.
Speaker 1:I think he was in and out because, as I say, he goes missing. Anyway, Joe, thank you so much, I won't keep you.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I could say it all.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:It's so interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, joe, thank you. So that is it, then, for this week's podcast. It was quite a lot, wasn't it, to get in that podcast. A massive, massive thanks again to Jo and all of the band. Thank you so much to the Blossoms for coming on. I've really, really enjoyed it and I hope you guys did too.
Speaker 1:Don't forget if you get a chance, please check out the Power of One for me. I'll put a link to their website below. If you can just go on and have a look at some of the amazing work that they are doing. Honestly, it would mean the world to me. Thank you so much and a massive thank you to you guys for listening. I know, thank you, thank you, uh. You send me messages and I really appreciate it. Please keep doing that't forget. If you are enjoying these podcasts, please remember to share them, like them, subscribe, whatever you do. That'd be great. I have got some absolutely unbelievable guests coming up in the next few weeks, so please keep checking back, make sure you subscribe, and then you should get a message through to your phone every time I release one. Thank you so much, guys. Have a great week. See you soon.