Unearth the Past: A family history & genealogy podcast
Step into the fascinating world of genealogy and family history with Unearth the Past, a podcast hosted by the charismatic Dr. Michala Hulme. This show masterfully blends riveting discussions, deep dives into historical contexts, and practical tips for uncovering your ancestral roots. Each week, Dr Hulme welcomes an eclectic mix of guests—musicians, actors, sports stars, and public figures—unravelling the remarkable and often surprising stories hidden within their family trees.
Beyond these compelling narratives, the podcast serves as a treasure trove for genealogy enthusiasts, spotlighting essential tools and resources for research. It also paints a vivid picture of the social and cultural landscapes that shaped family histories, exploring powerful themes like immigration, industrial revolutions, and the resilience of past generations.
If you would like to get in touch with Michala, you can do so via her website, www.michalahulme.com
If you want to help support the making of the podcast, please visit Michala's Patreon account https://www. patreon.com/DrMichalaHulme
Unearth the Past: A family history & genealogy podcast
S3: Ep3: Singing, Stockport and a Lunatic Asylum: Unearthing the Past with Blossoms' Tom Ogden
Experience a captivating journey through history and music as Dr Michala Hulme sits down with Tom Ogden, the charismatic lead singer of the British band Blossoms. Tom opens up about the band's meteoric rise and the creative sparks behind their upcoming album, "Gary." This episode promises an intimate look at the band's process and Tom's personal connection to his roots, all while giving a nod to the trials and triumphs of being in the spotlight.
In this episode, the pair turn back the clock to the early 20th century to unravel the dramatic and often tumultuous events surrounding life on Stafford Street. Through detailed accounts and historical records, they explore neighbourhood disputes, familial resilience, and John Ridgway’s commendable military service during WWI.
Michala also delves into the haunting tale of William Upton, a hat planker whose tragic battle with mental health issues reveals the stark realities of early 1900s medical treatment. This episode blends personal anecdotes with historical context, offering listeners a glimpse of life in Stockport, a working-class town in North West England. #ancestry #historian #podcast
Useful Links
Michala Hulme
The Blossoms
Power of One
Rostherne Research
Hello and welcome back to Unearth the Past, a podcast that delves into the lives of interesting people. This week I'm joined by the lead singer of one of Britain's best-loved bands. They've had number one albums, have been nominated for a Mercury Music Award, a Brit Award, and they get over a million listeners a month on Spotify. They even have their own podcast, which I love, and they have just headlined a gig at Withenshaw Park to over 30,000 people. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to part one of my amazing chat with the Blossoms, tom Ogden. Welcome to the podcast. Tom Ogden, thank you so much for coming on my podcast. I really, really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:The Blossoms blossoms, I would say, are the best thing to come out of Stockport since the hat thank you, that's a big statement that's a huge statement, isn't it you?
Speaker 2:know Phil Foden's from Stockport, don't you?
Speaker 1:I'm a man United fan oh, are you?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'm a City fan, so are you?
Speaker 1:Phil trumps it for me so I say I'm a man United fan. I am a man United fan, but I did have a season ticket at Stockport County for a while. Yeah, my friend Gemma, who went to school with her dad, for some reason got these season tickets. So during the 90s I spent a lot of time going to County it is nice County.
Speaker 2:I've got a soft spot for Stockport County. You know school used to take you there and stuff growing up, but all my family are City fans so I had no choice so you had no choice. Both sides do you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean Right, okay.
Speaker 2:When we were rubbish. I've been through thick and.
Speaker 1:I can tell you because we're going to delve into your family tree at the minute that one of your ancestors is definitely a County fan.
Speaker 2:Oh really, yeah, it would make sense if the stock put them goes back.
Speaker 1:Somewhere it so, somewhere it went from county to city. Yeah, Somehow. I don't know. So just before we delve into your tree. Thank you so much for coming on. I was loving, by the way, the gorilla.
Speaker 2:Oh Gary, oh Gary yeah.
Speaker 1:I didn't know the story of this. I was obviously asleep during this period. This huge gorilla got nicked from a garden's senses. This is a true story, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, like I just heard it on the radio last year and I was kind of like one. Why are they talking about it on the radio? Yeah it's kind of ludicrous, isn't it? And two who's gonna steal it? So then I went home and then did my own kind of like you've done for this. I did my own research on Gary the Gorilla and then just was like I'm turning this into a song.
Speaker 1:So you've got a new album coming out. Yeah, September.
Speaker 2:September the 20th and it's titled Gary.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask what's your title, Gary.
Speaker 2:When you make a record you're kind of looking for the title of the album. I find one of the hardest things because you kind of you've wrote all these songs and then you want this one thing that encapsulates it all. Your first album was just Blossoms, that's fine, whereas then, going forward, you're like oh, it needs to be like meaningful, it needs to be like deep, it needs to be this. So then often it'll just present itself, whether it's like a lyric from a song or something itself, whether it's like a lyric from a song or something.
Speaker 2:You go oh, that'll do for the album title. Yeah, sometimes you'll try just making a title from nothing and it's a bit like it feels a bit forced. This or insincere and I just kept. We wrote all these options down on this list and I put Gary on there for a laugh. I was like maybe we could call it Gary and I just kept going back to it. I just thought four letters it's an easy yeah, easy kind of, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It felt it was like the antithesis to what a lot of what we could have done, if you know what I mean yeah, yeah, and it just felt very yours. We're kind of, we're all mates, we have a laugh together. It's kind of why not?
Speaker 1:why not call your album gary? I love it, yeah, and it's a talking point as well. So is this? So will this be your?
Speaker 2:fifth studio album.
Speaker 1:Wow, no, I'm getting old now is there a bit of pressure, right, because all your albums have done so well? Is there a?
Speaker 2:bit of pressure on this one definitely. Do you feel like, yeah, I always feel the pressure. I'm the songwriter, so I kind of you kind of always like, oh, you've got some when you've had success. So to me, you've got something to compare it to, aren't you so? I do struggle with that. But you can't let it consume you. You just kind of, you can only do the best of your ability at that point in time and put it out, can't you? But yeah, you do feel the pressure anyway, tom, can we delve into your?
Speaker 2:family tree, yeah, yeah is it something you'd? Always fancied. Looking actually is to be fair. Yeah, because I don't know. I just find it interesting. I've got quite a big family anyway on both sides, like immediate family, if you know what I mean. So and I'd always said I was like one of the big tv programs that do. It came along. Now we got the band did, all right.
Speaker 2:It's like, yeah, you sometimes ask people, don't they do from if you do something that's like in the public eye. So I was always like I was always open to it. So then when you came along, it was like, yeah, definitely so, and my mum will be dead interested because she's kind of delved little bits and bobs. I sent you whatever the little bits she knew, so there's an interest there a slight warning.
Speaker 1:in this episode, folks both myself and tom will be reading from historical documents that use outdated terminology to describe mental illness and disabilities. It's not language we would use. We will literally just be working with the documents we have. Should we start with your dad's side? Yeah, if we go back in your family tree and I'm going to show you family tree in a minute there are quite a few.
Speaker 2:Thomas Tom Ogden's yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Did you know that? That's where your name sort of came from. It was passed down through the generations. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I did because, the weird thing is, everyone calls my dad Mark.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like, but he's actually on his like passport. It's Thomas Mark Ogden right, okay because his dad's Tom as well. So I think it was to avoid confusion. When he was a kid they just called him Mark yeah because his dad was Tom, do you?
Speaker 2:know, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I think that's what it was right, but then he joined the navy when he was like 18 and then it was like, oh, you know, when he needed his birth certificate for like the first time because obviously you don't, when would you need it, like in the 70s, growing up, you just no one's going to be like, oh, can I see your birth certificate? So then he was like oh, your name's actually tom thomas. Yeah, so he's thomas. And then his dad's thomas, and then I think his dad was thomas. So I knew that I was like gonna be called.
Speaker 2:I think they always said, oh, we've got to carry it on yeah that I was going to be, but because he was kind of Mark, everyone calls him Mark now yeah it's weird, but when he goes to work they call him Tom, because when he has to apply for jobs, it's Tom. So the people who employ him are always like well, you're Tom. Tom but everyone at home and everyone in the family calls him Mark. So I think when I came along it was like he's going to be a proper Tom so, so are you the next.
Speaker 1:Obviously you're the next generation then. So I take it. Are you going to carry the Tom brand on?
Speaker 2:Well, if I have kids? That has been discussed. That for a laugh, we could just keep it going. I don't know. I feel like I've kind of I don't know. I think it would be a bit mad if I called my kid Tom. I could do what my dad did, though couldn't I yeah I could call him tom and then give him a middle name and carry on that weird tradition yeah, just keep it going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I kind of like stuff like that yeah when I found it interesting, when I found out but yeah, I knew that I was from a long line of toms well, I thought let's start with your granddad, thomas ogden, who was born in 1933. Yeah, um, now the first record that I have for him that I found him on was something called the 1939 register and that was taken just before World War II. I've not got any World War II records to show us, and the reason I start in 1939 and go backwards is because there's a closure order on a lot of those records. In other words, there's a closure order on for 100 years to make sure that the person is deceased. You know, because it's got a lot of personal details on.
Speaker 1:You can apply for them, but I'm not gonna lie, it takes two years for them to come back. So that's why I started 1939 and then we go backwards. I'm going to show you the 1939 register so you can have a look and you can see him on there does he six at this point?
Speaker 1:so he's, yeah, he's only young on this one. If you have a look and you can see him on there. So is he six at this point? So he's, yeah, he's only young on this one. If you have a look at the top you'll see where they were living, and if you scroll down, you should find him somewhere on this list. Tom, you can zoom in.
Speaker 2:I've just seen it straight away there.
Speaker 1:Have you got it straight away? That's impressive.
Speaker 2:So this is just a register of where people live.
Speaker 1:So this is a register, taken before the war, of where everybody is.
Speaker 2:So he says Thomas Ogden Jr.
Speaker 1:That's him.
Speaker 2:At school.
Speaker 1:If you go above, can you see his mum or his dad?
Speaker 2:So they've got the same names. Yeah so Thomas Ogden Sr and Margaret Ogden yeah, so I met Maggie.
Speaker 1:Oh, did you. Yeah, did you meet Maggie?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so she was like really old when I was a kid.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I did. That would have been my great-grandmother.
Speaker 1:What memories have you got of meeting Maggie?
Speaker 2:She had a parrot, I think Did she, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember the parrot in a cage, I think, or Budgie, budgie, similar thing, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I remember that, and they lived on the estate because they're both from council estates.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it was just like a five-minute walk from my house, so I remember going over there. Am I looking for something specific here? Am I missing something?
Speaker 1:No, I just wanted to. That's them.
Speaker 2:So they're both the kids of this, so the same names, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is the Tom passing on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thomas Ogden Senior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, does it say what he does for a living?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Tire motor. I can't really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't worry. Reconditioner, yeah, Reconditioner. Reconditioner, sorry, yeah, domestic jewish. So she's just a mother. Yeah right, I'm gonna. Is that in stockport then? So this is in stockport. So they're living on adcroft street, which is in stockport, so on there, you would have noticed, maggie and senior maggie senior, so, which is mum, and then also dad, which is thomas.
Speaker 1:They got married in 1928 and I have a copy of their marriage certificate which I'm going to show you. And if you look at the address, you should notice that Margaret Ridgway, the Ridgways, lived across the road from the Ogdens. Which is possibly, maybe how they met.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you? Unless it was just a weird twist of fate.
Speaker 1:Where do you live?
Speaker 2:Across the road. It's the marriage certificate.
Speaker 1:So this is the marriage certificate.
Speaker 2:So this is their marriage. So it says Labour.
Speaker 1:So this would be, in theory, your great-grandparents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mad.
Speaker 1:So this is in 1928, but if you look in the column right at the end it will tell you who their dads are.
Speaker 2:So I don't know if you could read that out for me yep, so Thomas Ogden, aged obviously 21 and 18 when they got married yeah wow, bachelor, stafford Street.
Speaker 1:That's where they must have lived yeah, and I want you to keep that in your mind, because we're going to visit Stafford Street, okay father's name?
Speaker 2:Thomas Ogden, obviously, and John Ridgway is Margaret Ridgway's dad. Don't think they can't. Oh, slater, is that yeah?
Speaker 1:so he's so.
Speaker 2:Thomas Ogden is a Slater so his, my great grandad, is a Slater.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah my great grandad is a sleight of hand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if you can read what John Ogden does.
Speaker 1:John Ridgway, sorry, ridgway is labourer is a labourer yeah right, so I want you to keep Stafford Street in your mind yeah the Ogdens and the Ridgways live on Stafford Street. I'm presuming the families must have got on because you know the kids got married.
Speaker 2:Ah, so they both lived on Stafford Street.
Speaker 1:They both lived on Stafford Street, so they're living on Stafford Street before. Across the road from each other.
Speaker 2:So the number's different on the houses there, right?
Speaker 1:sorry I missed it. Yeah, I'm catching up again. Yeah, so they're living across the road from each other, on Stafford Street. However, I don't think all the neighbours on Stafford Street got on and I want to show you a newspaper article now. Now, the Kivells who are mentioned in this newspaper article live next door to the Ogdens and this was taken in 1930. And I don't know. You don't need to read it all, but if you can just give the people listening a sense of this article, I'll just read it, if you want go on then so it says, terrorise the street.
Speaker 2:Joseph Kivel and Ellen Kivel were summoned by Mary Ogden for using abusive language on Stafford Street, where the parties all live. Mary Ogden said defendants lived three doors away from her about 8.30pm on Sunday, july 6th. The female defendant was banging at a door and challenged her out to fight. The door was knocked off the hinges. They were both shouting and using abusive language. So is that the Kivels doing that to my family? Evidence was also given by about half a dozen witnesses all relatives of the complaint who said the defendants terrorised the street so that they had to creep along it as though they were thieves. Mr H Lowe's solicitor said the defendants never saw complaining after 12 noon on the Sunday in question. Kivil admitted there was some trouble before then but denied that he used abusive language at night. Defendants gave evidence in support and Florence Sidebottom, a neighbour who had been subpoenaed, said she heard no disturbance. The chief constable said Ellen Kivel had been twice previously before the court and Joseph 20 times. So they're bullying people on the street.
Speaker 1:They're bullying people on the street. Now I found another article that I want to show you. That happened before this, which sort of gives a bit more context to what's happening on Stafford Street at this time. So this is an earlier article, taken in 1929.
Speaker 2:So what year was that one we just did 1930 1930 so this says neighbours quarrel. So they used to put this stuff in the paper oh yeah that's mad, isn't it? It's like a Facebook status at the time it's the Facebook at the time it's.
Speaker 1:You know them, groups that roll on like I'm on a couple where I the time, it's the facebook at the time it's, you know them. Groups that roll on, yeah, like I'm on a couple where I live um and it's kind of a similar thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so neighbors quarrel. Ellen kivel of stafford street was summoned by mary elizabeth ogden of 41 stafford street for assault. So she plaintiff alleged that she was returning home after shopping her hands being filled with parcels. When she met defendant who asked her if she'd been talking about her, defendant said she had been waiting for the plaintiff for six months and with that she lifted her right hand and knocked her down, knelt on her and bashed her in the face, knocking five teeth out. Annie smith of 106 charles street. So I know where charles street is, if that's the same one.
Speaker 1:Yes, in Hillgate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. I used to go and hang around on Charles Street, climb on roofs and stuff when I was a teenager. Gave evidence that she saw the women fighting and Ellen Kivel on the top. Plaintiff was represented by Mr Harry Barn, I think it says, and defendant Mr H Lowe that's the solicitor who's turning up in the next one. Defendant pleaded that she had been provoked by the comments of the plaintiff and her solicitor submitted that both sides were equally to blame. A fine of 20 shillings, I presume, was imposed. So whose fault's that one then?
Speaker 1:Well, the fact is right that the Kivells sound like a bit of a run family, don't?
Speaker 2:they yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That are sort of trying to maybe run the street.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But the fact that the Kivel was found, you know, fined fined 20 shillings would make me think that it was obviously their fault. Yeah, you know, and they've had a fight on the street what they said.
Speaker 2:They've been waiting for six months, so what's that? I don't know, lost me a bit yeah, you know what I'm thinking.
Speaker 1:Maybe they had an argument six months previous and she'd been sort of waiting to get her revenge, yeah, yeah wow, did you think you'd have anything like that in your family tree? A A bit of fisticuffs on Stafford Street.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, it's at Stockport innit. Anything can happen Wouldn't surprise me. I think that's the Well. I'm happy to know they're not the instigators.
Speaker 1:They're on the good side. Yeah, they're like.
Speaker 2:And, by the sounds of it, they've probably stuck up for themselves a little bit maybe which is kind of why maybe other people are getting bullied and not saying out where Mary Ogden's giving her some back, isn't she?
Speaker 1:she's not really taking any shit, she is so before we go any further with the Ogdens, I want us to just go back to Margaret Ridgway, and we're just going to go down the Ridgways a bit. So Margaret Ridgway is your great-grandmother. She was born in Stockport in 1910 and she is the daughter of John Ridgway, who we saw on the marriage certificate which is your great great grandfather and Florence Upton.
Speaker 1:So that's her mum and you know, because we've seen the record, that they lived on Stafford Street. John was born in 1888. And he married Florence Upton in 1907. The next record I have for John Ridgway, which would be your great-great-grandad, is a newspaper article which I'd like to show you.
Speaker 2:So this is Maggie's dad.
Speaker 1:This is Maggie's dad. In 1915 your great-great-grandad appears in the local Stockport Advertiser and obviously 1915, what's happening at this time? World War I. So he joins up before the war starts. Actually he joins the army. I know he's in the army in 1911 because on the census record he's in the army. But I just want to show you why he's in the army. But I just want to show you, uh, why he appears in the newspaper no right, this says bandsman so is this that cc.
Speaker 2:They've been saying this for ages that they think something might be in the family. In a recent published official list of names of soldiers who have been awarded the distinguished conduct medal appears the name of bandsman john ridgeway, the second battalion, local north lancashire regiment. He was a stop put man. Bandsman ridgeway joined the army six years ago serving in india, and the war broke out so he was wounded when he was away. Is that what it says? Yeah, in a letter to his wife. He resides in Stafford Street of Hillgate, so it is the one near Charles Street that I'm thinking of. I was a near goner, as anyone was. I had a bullet in my throat for five weeks. Jesus, I had a rough time with it. Does it go into any more detail about that? It just says he's a bandsman.
Speaker 1:So all I know is that he's a bandsman. You can tell by his uniform. So this is a picture of him here.
Speaker 2:So does that mean music in?
Speaker 1:the yeah.
Speaker 2:What that's mad.
Speaker 1:Did you know that?
Speaker 2:No, not at all. And they've been saying my mum and dad have been saying my mum, my mum, there's got to be someone. And you didn't even have to go that far back did you no. So he's a bandsman. Do you know what he did?
Speaker 1:Bandsman John Ridgway. Tom's great-great-grandfather was born in Stockport in 1888. Sometime before 1911, john joined the 2nd Battalion of the loyal North Lancashire Regiment. While the primary role of a bandsman was to play music to boost morale, they were also trained soldiers and during combat many found themselves directly involved in dangerous frontline support missions. When World War I broke, john and his comrades were stationed in India. On the 16th of October 1914, the battalion set sail from Mumbai and headed to German East Africa, now known as Tanzania. The battalion was about to play their part in the Battle of Tanga. Their aim was to eliminate the Germans from East Africa, starting with the capturing of the strategically important port city of Tanga. On November 4th 1914, the British troops launched a full-scale attack on the German forces. However, they underestimated the German power, which led to a humiliating defeat for the British. More than 800 men were killed, captured or wounded. John received six bullet wounds, including one to his throat that remained there for five weeks. John's battalion lost 48 men, including one of his throat that remained there for five weeks. John's battalion lost 48 men, including one of his friends.
Speaker 1:Tom's great-great-grandfather was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal, given for exceptional bravery in the field. This prestigious award was only second to the Victoria Cross in terms of gallantry. In a letter home, john wrote to his dad. Well, dad, I have a surprise packet for you and all at home, and I can honestly say it was a bigger surprise for me as I was only doing my duty, as you would have done the same if you had been in my place Enclosed.
Speaker 1:You will find a copy of the command orders awarding the Distinguished Conduct Medal to some of my mob for gallant conduct under heavy fire and good work generally at the attack of Tanga on November the 4th 1914, and I had the luck to be one of them. The first lad mentioned was my chum and he was killed about five yards from me by a shell. We buried him where he fell and I suppose his medal would be sent to his people who I believe are in Manchester. Bandsman Ridgway finished the letter by asking his dad to send him a copy of the football echo each week and finished with the words play up, county. So I don't know what instrument he played, but I just know he was a bandsman in the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment.
Speaker 2:I want to know what the bands, so what roles? It wasn't just like drums, was it?
Speaker 1:No, so it was their job to keep morale up.
Speaker 2:That is mad. That is proper mad. It's blowing my head.
Speaker 1:that bit the next record that I have for john ridgeway is the 1921 census, but I just want you to pay attention under his name uh, under his name is the name of his wife so this is maggie's mom and dad in it so this is maggie's mom and dad right, let's have a look at this so his parents are at the top so I can't even read what his name is oh, it's a really funny one. It's a mad name that it's called like Cephas, cephas, cephas, ridgway, boss.
Speaker 2:Name that Charlotte Ridgway, so that's his mum and dad yeah then John Ridgway and his son's wife, rose Ridgway is that that's his mum and dad? Yeah, then John Ridgway and his son's wife, rose Ridgway is that his sister? But then?
Speaker 1:is it that small writing that's his wife?
Speaker 2:Rose Ridgway is his wife.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then his daughter. Then it says Dorothy Ridgway, william Gloucester.
Speaker 1:I can't even read Gloucester, I think it's pronounced.
Speaker 2:Oh, stepson, william Gloster's stepson, so Rosewood Ridgway is his wife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you may be wondering what's happened to Florence.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I haven't forgot about Florence. We forgot Florence. So yeah, it was't forgot about Florence.
Speaker 1:We forgot Florence.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it was Florence. That's Maggie's mum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Florence Upton, so pathway and that's why he steps on.
Speaker 2:So he's obviously that's Rose's kid, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he's remarried.
Speaker 2:Ah yeah, was that less common in them days.
Speaker 1:So he's remarried Rose. But Florence is still alive and I find her on the 1921 census living somewhere else and if you have a look on this record you will see that she is the second name down. And if you have a look at her condition to marriage it's quite interesting a condition to marriage.
Speaker 2:It's quite interesting. So, florence Ridgway, personal occupation, home duties. So it just says D, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:For divorced. Ah, the 1921 census, which you're looking at is the first time that divorce is recognised as a condition to marriage. Normally it's widow married or single, basically. So I would like us to stick with Florence Upton, if that's all right. Yeah, so Florence Upton is your great-great-grandmother.
Speaker 2:Maggie's mum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's a bit of mystery going on on the Upton side of the tree.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Florence Upton, your great-great-grandmother. So Florence Upton's parents are William Upton and Sophia Goodwin. I found the family on the 1891 census and Florence's dad is a planker.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But the fact he's a planker came in really useful when I came to do the research. So when I found the family on the 1901 census, 10 years later they're all split up. Mum and dad are missing and the kids are living with, like their eldest sister and her husband. So I was like-.
Speaker 2:That's strange.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's happened. So I managed to find another record which shed a bit of light on what happened to the Uptons, which I'm going to show you now.
Speaker 2:List of persons who slept or abode in this institution on the night of Sunday 31st of March. So what is this like?
Speaker 1:a it's the County Lunatic Asylum.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. Institution, yeah, gives you a clue, doesn't it? So, if you scroll, down, have they been? Sectioned. Is that what this is?
Speaker 1:So if you scroll down, you should find his name.
Speaker 2:William Upton Planker. Hat Planker. It says doesn't it 45. Yeah, so he's in there. Does it give me more information than that?
Speaker 1:So you know what I said to you I needed to go to the records office.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I went and got his patient files, which I'm going to show you now.
Speaker 2:Jesus, wow, so this is Maggie's.
Speaker 1:So this is Maggie's grandad. This is Maggie's grandad, so Maggie's mum is Florence Upton.
Speaker 2:And she's Florence's mum and dad.
Speaker 1:Florence's mum and dad so.
Speaker 2:So you can get patient files from.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Lunatic asylums in the 1900s. That's mad.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's not done something mental has he.
Speaker 1:So he is.
Speaker 2:I didn't find out.
Speaker 1:This is a copy of his case file and he was in there for 15 years 15 years. So he was in there on the 1901 census. He's still in there on the 1901 census. He's still in there in the 1911 census. Now you're probably not going to be able to make much of this out.
Speaker 2:Why is it written in like old?
Speaker 1:I'm going to pass it here, but if you have a look on the top right it does give you some idea of what he's in for, and feel free to zoom in and scan any part of it.
Speaker 2:I believe we found this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:William Upton Tom's great-great-great-grandfather was admitted to the Parkside County Lunatic Asylum in Macclesfield on the 8th of April 1898. The asylum opened in 1871 to accommodate 700 pauper lunatics. William's patient record states that this was the second time he had been admitted. He was described as suffering from acute mania, being noisy, violent and abusive towards others. His conversation was described as being irrelevant and nonsensical. He also displayed erratic behaviour and delusion. By 1910, his condition had worsened. He was described as being huddled up in a demented state, unoccupied and uninterested. He forcibly smiled when addressed. Throughout 1912 and 1913, william continued to display similar patterns of behaviour. He was described as being noisy, often talking and laughing to himself. By April of 1914, his condition had deteriorated further. His heart had weakened, he had right-sided paralysis and he was placed on a liquid diet. He passed away at 10.30pm on the 11th of April. His cause of death was listed as general paralysis of the insane.
Speaker 1:Gpi resulted from untreated syphilis. It occurred several years after the initial infection. The bacteria which causes syphilis entered the brain and the nervous system, resulting in delusions, mania, violence, erratic behavior, muscle weakness and eventual paralysis. Before the invention of penicillin, there was no effective treatment for GPI, with it proving fatal only a few years after the onset of symptoms. Now this is his death certificate. So I don't know if you can try and make any of that out. Don't worry if you can't, it's the writing.
Speaker 2:isn't it Right? Cause of death it says general paralysis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so his cause of death was recorded as general paralysis of the insane Jesus 58 years.
Speaker 2:Is that what that says?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the terminology that they use to describe his cause of death is related to something else, and that's syphilis.
Speaker 2:The STI? Yeah, so that's related to a sexually transmitted disease.
Speaker 1:So syphilis.
Speaker 2:So when syphilis went untreated, it basically caused people did, they wouldn't have known what this was back in the day, would they?
Speaker 1:and it caused people, in their terminology, to go insane. When it's not treated and when how it's recorded is general paralysis of the insane.
Speaker 2:So that's what they put down.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it relates back to that.
Speaker 1:To syphilis.
Speaker 2:That is mad. So what is he promiscuous then? Well, they think he should. You could have got it even off his marriage, I don't know.
Speaker 1:You just don't know, do you? It's impossible to predict? Isn just don't know. Do it's impossible to kind of predict, to know?
Speaker 2:wow, I thought it was going to be something to do with hats, because you said yeah, they're mad, you know, like the hat, because there was a thing in there like working in the old hat museums, yeah hat factories, and it sent people insane.
Speaker 1:That is mad sorry to interrupt the podcast and it will be back in just a minute, but I would like to take the time to talk to you about an organization that is really close to my heart, and that is the power of one. The power of one is a non-profit organization founded by the fabulous samantha hutchinson, which supports women across the world who work in the animal welfare community. There are currently thousands of women across the globe who are fighting to improve the lives of animals and make their communities safer by reducing the spread of disease. They are working really hard to reduce the number of animals on the street through rescue, providing rehabilitation, rehoming and spray and neutering campaigns. They are also raising awareness through education in local schools and improving public perceptions of the cities, towns and countries in which they live.
Speaker 1:Now, this industry relies almost exclusively on public donations, and many women risk their livelihoods and in some cases, even their lives, just to be a part of it. Funding helps to create jobs. It supports families and local businesses and provides access to education and much needed mental health support. If you get a chance and look, I know times are hard, but if you get a chance please just check out the Power of One website. I've put the details in the podcast description and even just tell people about this organisation, this wonderful organisation, and what they are doing to help animals and especially dogs, and if you know me, you know all of my dogs around the world. Now back to the podcast. Now we've only got 11 minutes left.
Speaker 2:I can stay a little bit longer, if you need, if, unless you've got someone coming have you got coming in somebody coming in after?
Speaker 1:um, not straight away. I've got a couple hours until the next one, right? Well, if we go slightly over, obviously I'll pay for it.
Speaker 2:Just let me know, right I'm like, yeah, don't cut me short on this, I'm invested you invested.
Speaker 1:Now what I want to do, because I'm conscious that your mum is banging to her family tree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, is the stuff on that side as well.
Speaker 1:Oh yes.
Speaker 2:Oh God.
Speaker 1:So you knew a bit about your mum's side, didn't you? Because I think you had a relative that looked into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they'd done a little bit and got to like World War.
Speaker 1:I kind of vibe yeah and they'd done a really good job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so World.
Speaker 1:War, I kind of act, yeah, and they'd done a really good job. Yeah, so your granddad was John Rigby.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, postman.
Speaker 1:Postman, and we're able to go back further than him to his dad, which is James Rigby. He was born in 1885 in Gorton. That would be your great-grandfather, and then, if we go back a step further than that, we've got Ezra Rigby. That's a cool name. Yeah, now is that a name, so when you sent me over, that name was in the mix was it?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah, I've recognised them saying they've mentioned it in the conversations and stuff, and Ezra Rigby is from Liverpool, so this is the first time They've mentioned it in the conversations and stuff, and Ezra Rigby is from Liverpool, so this is the first time. This is the story that I've heard. Okay, so what story have you heard?
Speaker 2:That's what you're not probably going to be able to find it. They walked from Wallasey to Stockport for work.
Speaker 1:Well, ezra Rigby. He was born in 1852, about 1852 in Liverpool In 1852, about 1852 in Liverpool In 1885, he marries Sarah Ann Holding in Bradford, which is basically an area of Manchester. Ah, so it's yeah it's not. People think Yorkshire. I'm like no, it's like near man City's ground basically. I'm going to show you a census record and I'm going to point you in the direction, and it tells you something about Ezra which I think is quite interesting. So bear with me. This is the 1911 census.
Speaker 2:This is James Rigby's dad.
Speaker 1:So this is James Rigby's dad and he is called Ezra Rigby, and I want you to pay attention to the last column on the 1911 census. Feel free to zoom in.
Speaker 2:Like that way, yep. Right, so John Rigby Am I looking at?
Speaker 1:Ezra Rigby should be right at the top.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ezra Rigby, 56th Married. So personal occupation Grinder.
Speaker 1:Grinder. So he worked in the metal industry. Wow, iron. Yeah, occupation grinder, grinder so he worked in the metal industry. Wow, iron yeah iron worker liverpool does this? What's this? Deaf, dumb and blind? Yeah, so the last column. By the way, this is not language we would use today, but on the census the last column says deaf, dumb and blind.
Speaker 2:If any of these person the schedule is number one totally deaf, dumb or blind, or two totally blind, three lunatic, in so state the infirmity of opposite that person's name, so they put totally dnd yeah, so how would they diagnose? What does that mean? Mean then?
Speaker 1:I think what it means reading between the lines is the fact that he's obviously deaf, so he's completely deaf.
Speaker 2:Is that from working?
Speaker 1:No, I think he was probably born with it.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he's completely deaf. But also because he's deaf, he's not picked up speech. Wow and what's interesting if you look at the person who's lodging with them right on the bottom row, who's not a family member, he's also deaf. The Rigbys appear in the newspaper, probably more than anybody else I've researched.
Speaker 2:Yes, wow, I think I've seen. Did I send you one of the clippings that I'd?
Speaker 1:seen. I don't know. What have you seen?
Speaker 2:Is it that Sarah Ann Holding?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:She's in there for being pissed, I think.
Speaker 1:All the time, yeah, all the time.
Speaker 2:Is there more then?
Speaker 1:Yes, oh my God. Sarah Ann Holding is regularly brought up in front of the courts. I think on one of the criminal records that I found for them, they come in front of the court 16 times for being drunk and disorderly 16 times.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:I've got numerous articles relating to their relationship and I think it's probably fair to say, tom, that they weren't the best parents and that's probably because they were drink dependent so who is this um? So this would be your great great grandparents yeah, mine yeah yeah, your great, great grandparents.
Speaker 2:So this is john rigby granddad, yeah yeah, and it's his granddad, yeah, so we so, ezra and sarah, and weren't good parents to no, james rigby, yeah, and we know that because they are prosecuted on numerous occasions. We're not looking after the kids wow, did they get them to not get them taken off from there, or is that not a thing?
Speaker 1:but it just wasn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't a thing um, but they didn't end up in the lunatic asylum like the other side. Maybe they were a couple of steps away from it. They didn't end up in the lunatic asylum like the other side. Maybe they were a couple of steps away from it.
Speaker 1:The thing is they didn't end up in the workhouse, right, so they managed to keep the whole family out of the workhouse. But judging by, you know, judging by some of the newspaper reports and there's loads of them there's one in 1896 where they're done for neglecting the children, there's one in 1901 where they're done for neglecting the children In 1908, this is just a little article relating to Ezra.
Speaker 2:Yesterday a deaf mute named Ezra, rigby Booth Street, was charged with being drunk and disorderly at the Manchester County Police Court. Fine of 10 shillings and costs of 14 days was imposed. That is mad Deaf mute. That's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm presuming, as I say, obviously he's deaf and I'm presuming because he's deaf he's not picked up the language skills In 1904,. This is another article.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's only a small one fourth conviction for cruelty to children was recorded today at the city police court against sarah and rigby of elizabeth street, clayton, who receives six months imprisonment for neglecting her four little ones.
Speaker 1:The case was brought on by blah blah blah yeah, that is mad, but I think it's a testament though, the fact that you know the kids had this pretty crappy start to their lives yeah but all did alright, didn't they? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, they had families of their own, exactly, and they continued and stuff so they obviously broke that cycle yeah because that must have been tough, you know, growing up yeah, it's what affects that. On then james, exactly. What then james brought to john exactly, and then it's passed down and passed down, isn't it you?
Speaker 1:know what I mean. So we mentioned james rigby and james rigby, who is your granddad's dad, married Margaret Rigby and I remember you sent me a message saying I hope they're not related they're not.
Speaker 2:They're not at all, don't worry completely not related.
Speaker 1:One's Liverpool, one's one's Manchester wow um. Margaret's parents are John Thomas Rigby and her mum is Catherine Frawley, and Catherine died. John Rigby actually goes on to marry her eldest sister.
Speaker 2:This is what my mum told me about this and they were like how is this, what's going on here? So he married us.
Speaker 1:So married her eldest sister.
Speaker 2:That's a bit mad, isn't?
Speaker 1:it. I want to show you an image. Actually, If you just bear with me, I'm just going to get it up and there's a reason why I'm showing you this image.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you can describe him.
Speaker 2:I mean the hair's a bit mad, but I feel like he looks like some of my cousins.
Speaker 1:Right, okay.
Speaker 2:That's my first thought.
Speaker 1:Okay, what if I said to you a programme on the telly that's based in Birmingham?
Speaker 2:Peaky Blinders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, does he not remind you of somebody out at the Peaky Blinders with the shaven head and the fringe? Yeah, but I haven't watched Peaky Blinders, what I know, sorry, oh my God, is he the main't watched Peaky Blinders what I know?
Speaker 2:sorry, oh my god, is he the main guy in Peaky Blinders?
Speaker 1:yeah, so the main guy Cillian Murphy's character? Yeah, thomas.
Speaker 2:Shelby, I know the names and stuff, but so at this time, he's from Salford.
Speaker 1:At this time, manchester, when he's growing up, manchester is in the middle of what we'd call gang warfare, and so this is growing up, Manchester is in the middle of what we'd call gang warfare and these gangs were called the Scutlers and they were in operation at the end of the 19th century in Salford and Manchester and the Scutlers would fight over territory and would fight over women and they're really distinguishable from anybody else because of the way they look and the fact that they had a shaved head and they had a fringe and their look sort of evolved into another group which would come later called the Ikes and they had flared pants. Judging by his appearance and the fact that his look is so distinguished, the fact that he's got a completely shaved head with the fringe would make me think he was probably part of one of the Scuttler gangs in Salford.
Speaker 2:No way.
Speaker 1:Tom, I always finish by asking the guests this question right, if you could invite anybody from your family tree it might be somebody we've mentioned, maybe somebody we've not for dinner tonight. Who would it be, and why and what would you cook them?
Speaker 2:From all them people. You've just told me Anything.
Speaker 1:Is that what you're saying? Yeah, anyone.
Speaker 2:I'm torn between. There's a few characters, isn't?
Speaker 1:there.
Speaker 2:I kind of want to speak to the band. The bandsmen the bandsmen.
Speaker 1:And find out what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because obviously I've gone into music so that's kind of pricked my ears the most in terms of because everyone said I'm sure there'll be some music there Because no one else is like music like my mum and dad are into music, but music there because no one else is like music like my mum and dad are into music, but no one like plays or does anything.
Speaker 1:So it seemed a bit like just out of the blue for me to like pick up music I was gonna say it was out of the blue, and I suppose it was probably out of the blue for him if you think about what life must have been like for him growing up in stockport. So then he obviously plays an instrument. I want to know that's what.
Speaker 2:Surely we can find out what he plays somewhere along the line. I do not think we would be able to now.
Speaker 1:Possibly if we could try and get more records Like band records.
Speaker 2:Would they have kept band records? Possibly, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I have got the war diary, by the way, which I'll share with you once we finish the podcast of the night of the 4th of November when he won his medal. So yeah, I think he would be pretty interesting also the, the mental.
Speaker 2:William Upton that's kind of interesting as well, but I don't know if that would just end up being a bit scary or something.
Speaker 1:I was going to say it's like a film, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, even like rocking. You think these things are just made up for the telly, don't you? But it's not, is it? And I was?
Speaker 1:reading. I obviously became a bit obsessed when I was there started reading everybody's everybody's case and on a few of them it actually says whether they're a danger or not and whether they were basically restrained for the whole time they were there because they were a danger. Um, I don't know about him, because the section where it says whether he was a danger or not and whether they were shackled is missing. Basically, it's just not on his paper.
Speaker 2:Is that the only file of him that you can find, that one bit, or is it like multiple?
Speaker 1:No, so there was that page and then there was also another page on top of it, which I'll send you, which you can have a look at now, bearing in mind that just relates to his case file and when he died it might be admin, you know, when he checks in yeah um records. But yeah, tom, thank you so much. No, thanks for doing that. Did you enjoy it?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, it was really, really interesting. I just want to carry on and just keep finding out more and more stuff, but I suppose you've unlocked something there, haven't you? Of course, sounds like there's still more to delve in certain aspects of it, anyway.
Speaker 1:Honestly, there's so much to your tree, there's loads we could have spent probably three hours going through. There's some really remarkable stories in your tree, some of them that we didn't talk about because I knew you knew a bit about them, so yeah, Wow, no thanks for doing it.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:So that is it, then, for this week's podcast. A huge, huge thank you to my wonderful guest, tom Ogden from the Blossoms. The lads have a new album out called Gary. Please go and check it out. They're also on tour. They go on tour, I pretty, pretty eminently. I'll put a link to their website so you can have a, have a check and see if there's any tickets left.
Speaker 1:Another shout out to the power of one. It's an amazing organization that I am proud to support on this podcast. Please do me a favor. It takes a couple of minutes. Just go on, click on the website and have a look at some of the amazing work they are doing with women involved in animal rescue from around the world. Please check them out for me. If you would like your family tree researching or you have a family tree mystery that you you would like solving, you can get in contact with me via my website, which is wwwmichaelahumecom. I have some very exciting podcast news, which I can't quite share with you yet, but hopefully on the next episode I should be able to give you some more details, which is very, very exciting. Anyway, have a great week researching and I shall see you on the next episode.