Unearth the Past: A family history & genealogy podcast

S2 Ep12: Bricks, Peas, and a Dodgy Death: Unearthing the past with BAFTA-winning producer Juliet Charlesworth

• Dr Michala Hulme • Season 2 • Episode 12

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Embark on a voyage through time with BAFTA-winning producer Juliet Charlesworth, as she pieces together the intriguing puzzle of her family's legacy. In the company of this British drama powerhouse, we venture into the posh origins and humble beginnings of the Reeves Charlesworth line, unearthing a narrative rich with heartwarming connections to the past.

The saga continues with the industrious tale of Reeves Charlesworth Limited, a company that laid bricks and built futures since 1895. The firm not only revolutionised housing development but also championed the welfare of the working class. Juliet shares personal snippets from her family's history that reveal the essence of the Charlesworth spirit—innovators with a penchant for bachelor's mushy peas and a vested interest in their community's health and wellbeing.

Closing our journey, we explore the colourful tapestry of Juliet's maternal family tree, with connections to American pioneers, literary icons, and possibly Scottish royals. Join us for this emotional and enlightening exploration, which promises to be as captivating as the stories Juliet brings to life on screen.

Presented by Dr Michala Hulme
Research Assistants: Javareia Saleem & Lucy Stott
Proudly Supporting the Power of One

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www.rostherneresearch.com
www.michalahulme.com
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Speaker 1:

All the research in this podcast has been conducted by me and my team at Ross Thurn Research. If you would like to know more about what we do and how we can help you, visit us at wwwrossthernresearchcom. Hello and welcome back to Unearth the Past, the podcast where we delve into the family history of interesting people, uncovering captivating tales that have been hidden in the past. On today's episode, we are joined by a very special guest folks. She is behind some of Britain's best dramas, including the insanely popular Happy Valley, the brilliant After the Flood, also Brassic, scott and Bailey Traces, ridley Clocking Off I could go on forever. I am absolutely thrilled to be joined by BAFTA winning producer, the fabulous Juliette Charlesworth. Juliette, welcome to the podcast. Juliette Charlesworth, hello, thank you so much for coming on my podcast. It's brilliant.

Speaker 2:

I can't wait, are you?

Speaker 1:

excited Hugely. So you have taken an Ancestry DNA test. I came tonight to your work and made you spit into a tube, which was lovely. Yeah, in a car park in Bolton, literally in a car park, folks in Bolton, and we'll talk about that at the end. If's all right, we'll go through the results and unpick your traits. We'll find out if you're a morning person, if you're a night person, if you get hungry. Oh, I do. Oh, do you get hungry?

Speaker 1:

you hungry person david, does she get hungry? Yes, yeah, um, so we'll go through all that at the end, but I thought, thought first, should we go into your family tree? Yes, please, let's do that. Thank you. So you know a lot about your mum's side, don't you A bit? A bit More about that, more, okay. So shall we start with your dad's side?

Speaker 2:

Yes, please.

Speaker 1:

So I thought we would go down your dad's dad line. Yes, yes, we'll go down the reeves charlesworth line, yeah, yeah. So reeves charlesworth was born in 1898 and the first record I have for him is from 1939 and that's just before the war. And he is living with, with hilda crowther, which would be your grandmother, grandma, and the children, and they're living at Rycroft I don't know if you've heard of Rycroft. In Sheffield, that's at Whirlow Park Road. Whirlow Park Road, yes, I didn't know a lot about Whirlow Park Road, oh.

Speaker 2:

Oh yes, we drove past it recently to go to a funeral, actually because my Aunt Jill, who obviously you know about they lived on whirlpool park road and I said to dave, oh, let's just drive down whirlpool park road for for old time's sake. Um, yeah, it's posh in it posh.

Speaker 1:

So when I did a bit of research, it's in the top 10 most expensive roads in sheffield. Let me tell you that, um, they had an orchard in their garden. Yeah, well, I was gonna say so. It is one of the most expensive road in sheffield. Yeah, the house they lived at, yes, in 2002 was valued at well over a million pounds. Wow, it's in 2002 and when they sold the house? And I'm thinking that your ancestors sold it, your granddad maybe, like the 1950s ish they moved.

Speaker 2:

They definitely moved to a flat, a modest flat that they could yeah, they could operate within. I remember that and that would have been, yeah, late 50s yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, they sold that house, believe it or not, to a socialite, a very wealthy socialite, who she was called Ing and Ing Sugden, and she was basically part of the Sugden family made cutlery out of steel.

Speaker 2:

Yes, sheffield steel, yes, Sheffield steel.

Speaker 1:

And did you know that after your ancestors left, Frank Sinatra visited that house for tea?

Speaker 2:

I'm not surprised.

Speaker 1:

No, that's amazing. Frank sinatra visited that house for tea. So did royalty and showbiz, yes, after we left. Well, yeah, grandpa and grandma, yeah, it was the house in sheffield I love that yeah, oh, that's posh, but I don't want to put a damper on it, but it wasn't always that way for your family right, so that's interesting, yeah, like this. Well, I thought you would. Yeah, I thought that's maybe what we could pick up on today.

Speaker 1:

So I thought if we go back down the charlesworth side and we'll sort of see where that social progression has happened, because it was only a few generations before that your family were living in like a two up, two down terrace I thought you're gonna say they're in the workhouse.

Speaker 2:

Destitute in the workhouse.

Speaker 1:

So I thought should we follow the path then and see how they ended up in this huge house in in sheffield? So, following on from 1939, I did find your granddad and your grandmother in the newspaper and this relates to their wedding that occurred in 1925. And there's a big write-up, by the way, in the newspaper. It was in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph. Would you like to see what your granddad and grandmother looked like on their wedding day?

Speaker 2:

Yes, oh my God, he definitely looks like my dad.

Speaker 1:

That's lovely, that's so 1920s, a hundred years ago, a hundred years ago, but because they were a quite prominent family in Sheffield, which we'll get on to in a minute, there was a huge write-up and it went into intricate detail about what the bride was wearing, what the bridesmaids were wearing, the groom, where everybody was from. It was a huge write-up. Now I've managed to go back a bit further. I found them on the 1921 census and on the 1921 census he is living in the house with his mum and dad. His dad is also called Reeves.

Speaker 2:

This is grandpa's mum and dad.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, which would be your great grandparents and he is managing the company at this point, and the company that he is managing is Reeves Charlesworth Limited Builders. They're builders. Yeah, julia, your family, do not do things by halves. No way they do not. Let me tell you that they were not just any old builders. They built most of Sheffield. Did you know that?

Speaker 2:

I know what my dad's built around, right okay so it sort of doesn't surprise me. There was, as you go into sheffield, there's a massive wall of flats. Yes, somewhere, and I dad I built them, um, so I I don't know how much they ever built.

Speaker 1:

Put it this way, they were arguably the most successful building firm in sheffield. Reeves charlesworth, reeves charlesworth wow, yeah, where did it all go wrong? I don't think it did, because you know, if you think about it like you, are remarkably successful in your career. So obviously you've all got that drive. You know, you work hard, you graft and you do well yeah, yeah, but why?

Speaker 2:

why isn't reeves charlesworth still trading?

Speaker 1:

yeah, now yeah I don't know I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

So both, um. So both your granddad and your great granddad are obviously involved in the building trade. But, as I've mentioned, they're not just any old builders. They are remarkably successful. So, for example, in 1937 they built the largest bachelor's peas factory oh yes, in the country. That cost over a hundred thousand pounds. The new factory was able to churn out 1.5 million tins of peas and a million packets of peas in one week.

Speaker 1:

Reeves Charlesworth Limited was founded in 1895 by Juliet's 24-year-old great grandfather. He had a reputation for integrity and straight dealing. The company constructed a range of buildings, from cinemas to factories, to social housing and even churches. Reeves Charlesworth also played a role in the construction of the world's first garden city at Letchworth, developing houses on the site. By 1937 they had built well over 2,000 houses for Sheffield Corporation. Their social houses were well built, some even had a garden, and in 1934 the houses on the Woodlands Estate had a plug for a wireless and a separate plug for ironing. I have got some images of some of the buildings they've created. Oh my god, you would like to see them. Yeah, so this is an example of one of their homes that they built.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's lovely isn't that really nice yeah, that's just like normal suburbia beautiful yeah, so that's one of them, um, and then I can show you another example of one of his homes, which, um, by the way, the home that I showed you before is still there that's just absolutely dead normal.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but at the time and that was in the 30s. But don't forget, these are.

Speaker 1:

This is rebuilding yeah, this is it. So you're getting rid of all the slum clearances. Yeah, yeah, you've got all your back-to-back houses that have gone up in the 19th century and the council are paying commissions, and one of the commissions they got was for 80,000 back then to build these houses. It's huge. Yeah, I've got some more for you that I can show you.

Speaker 2:

Oh, my God, oh, that's beautiful.

Speaker 1:

And they are advertising all the time, honestly, all the time, in the paper they built that pub. They built the pub. Yeah, they built the that pub. They built the pub, yeah, they built the pub.

Speaker 2:

They're not backers in coming forwards, are they?

Speaker 1:

no, not at all love it.

Speaker 2:

When my grandpa died grandma and grandpa died dad went down to clear out. You know, I think I think all of the children must have gone down and helped tidy up the flat they were in. I remember him coming back. We were living down in Cornwall at the time. I remember him arriving back with a box and within this box was a tin of bachelor's mushy peas the like of which we had never eaten before, really Never. We'd never had tin peas. And did we eat it? Or did dad say, no, I love no, you had to soak them, right, yeah, you had to sit and soak them overnight or something. And I remember dad being overjoyed because you know he absolutely loved them. Obviously, mum wouldn't have them in the house Peas till their dying day, still eating bachelor's peas.

Speaker 1:

As I mentioned, they're builders. They're very, very successful builders. Your great granddad has got a reputation for being very fair with his workers. He made sure that working conditions were were really good for them before he became a builder. He stated I read a newspaper article where from the age of 10, he was working sort of part time doing a bit of building. From the age of 10? From the age of 10. And then he sort of qualified as a joiner. And when he was a joiner sorry, he qualified as a cabinetmaker. And he was when him and his fellow co-workers kind of got together. They fought together for better working conditions for cabinet makers within this country. So he was a very sort of fair employer. No nonsense and I think that's how he got that sort of reputation within Sheffield is if you want anything building, you go to Reeves Charlesworth Because he's fair and good, because he's fair and good, and so he would have been able to employ more builders as well.

Speaker 2:

So therefore the company could expand Exactly.

Speaker 1:

I also found, by the way, your granddad and your great granddad in this record. I'm going to see if you can figure out what this is.

Speaker 2:

Oh, it'll be Masonic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Freemasons.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So they were all in the Freemasons. Of course they were.

Speaker 2:

Because that's how you did business. Of course it was Networking. Charlesworth Yep, october 24, reeves Yep, love it. Oh, hold on. Charlesworth, reeves, builder. Whee, nothing felt. No, benjamin Dodworth, don't know him. Oh, how marvellous.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so they were all in the Freemasons. But your great-grandfather didn't just stop at building, he also cared about the people in the community, and I've spoke about that. He cared about his workforce, but he really cared about the people in the community, and I've spoke about that. He cared about his workforce, but he really cared about the people in his community and he wanted to make a difference. So in 1918, he entered into Sheffield City Council. He was co-opted into the Walkley Ward seat. The first election took place in 1921. He was defeated. He was also defeated again in 1922, but he didn't give up. Come on, he didn't give up. Come on, he didn't give up. And in 1922 he was defeated by arguably a very strong labor candidate. However, in the election of june of 1923 he finally won the seat and he remained as a liberal independent candidate until 1928.

Speaker 1:

He very firmly did not want to be associated with the two main political parties, so he stood as an independent member liberal member in the city council. He was also chair of the I think I'm hoping I'm pronouncing this correctly the Walkley Hospital Committee. His wife was a keen supporter of the Walkley Women's Liberal League and she organised various dances and tea parties, and you name it. He was president of the Sheffield Master Builders Association oh, that's good. And later that then included the whole of Yorkshire. Good Lord, in 1923, he was appointed the first ever president of the Yorkshire Educational Association for the Building Industry and this was to give boys proper training in all things to do with building. He was a keen trade unionist and, as I've mentioned that, when he was a joiner and a cabinet maker, he and his fellow craftsmen fought for better conditions, and I've got some pictures of him. Do you want to see him? Yeah, I've got loads of pictures of him. Yeah, because he was such a well-respected man.

Speaker 2:

He was a leader, not a follower, wasn't he? Wow, wow, this is great.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, he's obviously very switched on, so he starts putting advertisements in the local paper. So in case you wanted to vote for him, Voting solid for Reeves Charlesworth Gosh.

Speaker 2:

That's fantastic. That's fantastic. He would have been on YouTube.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, He'd be all over the place. He'd be all over the show. So at one point he does retire from politics. He dies in 1933. Gosh, the year after dad was born. Only four years before he passes away, he's actually considering going for the Rotherham seat. Come on, yeah. Reeves Charlesworth, conscientious Reeves Charlesworth is the man. He really is. He is the man. Can we keep going back? Reeves Charlesworth, then your great grandad. He was the son of Robert Charlesworth, your great great grandfather, and Jane Needham. Robert was born in 1845 in Grantham, lincolnshire, and he was a cabinetmaker, which is where the joinery comes from.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, yeah, on Christmas Day in 1868, he marries Jane in Pitsmore, which I think is in Yorkshire, and the couple have six children. Now, obviously one of those is Reeves that we've spoke about. Yes, but they had another son called, named after his dad, called Robert, and Robert was born in 1879 and both you and Robert are involved in the arts. Ah, did you wonder where?

Speaker 2:

that my uncle Mike was in um drama and English literature. He was a tutor at Repton College in Derbyshire, right. So he did drama and produced and directed multiple plays all around the world, but I didn't know where he'd got it. I don't think I got it from him.

Speaker 1:

No.

Speaker 2:

You know, interested in the arts. But I wondered, why him, amongst all the builders, which everybody else appears to be? Why did he become artistic?

Speaker 1:

when you see cabinet maker or joiner in a family tree, it can mean set designer right so, which would explain why robert charlesworth's son, who I'm about to talk about now, reeves his brother went into the art, so he is a world renowned bass vocalist. You're kidding no, he's. He toured the united states, canada, australia, new zealand, south africa and germany, literally. I've got so many articles in the newspaper. What year would this be? So this would be the start of the 20th century. Gosh, do you want to see what he looks like?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, did he ever marry.

Speaker 1:

He did marry Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he did marry. Oh gosh, what a matinee idol. Wow, that's beautiful, isn a matinee idol.

Speaker 1:

Wow, that's beautiful, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it's just a fabulous picture, isn't it? It's like a spotlight picture. Yeah, there's another part of the tree that I want to talk about, yes, okay, so we've basically just gone down the Charlesworth side, yeah, so we've gone from Reeves. Yeah, your granddad Then went to your great granddad, yeah, your grandad then went to your great grandad, yeah, reeves, and then we went back a step further. We went to robert, yeah, and we can actually, if we go back a step further now you get which would be what your great, great, great grandad, john, who was a painter. So they're all kind of involved in the sort of building building trade. But I want to go back to your grandmother, which is hilda mary crowther.

Speaker 1:

Her dad was called harry crowther yeah and her mom was called elizabeth jane froggatt. Yes, does that mean anything to you? No, no, okay. Well, I managed to find your. What would be what your great-grandmother's birth certificate, if you'd like to see it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if you can attempt to read this out, Juliet. If you can't, because the writing's appalling, I'll cut this out.

Speaker 2:

Oh, my God, you see, on the 22nd of November 1873, I can't quite tell Dernie Street, I can't quite tell where Elizabeth Jane, a girl born to Richard William Froggett and Elizabeth Froggett, formerly Bunting Bunting, he's an engine fitter.

Speaker 1:

Now I've got another record to show you, if you want after that. So the first record that I find her on after her birth is the 1881 census. Now this makes slightly better reading, but if you have a look right at the bottom of the census you will see that she is living with her mum, who's called Elizabeth Froggattatt, because she's now married. Uh, the head of the household is nana, which is elizabeth bunting, and they're living in carbrook hall, uh hotel. So I just wondered if you can just, and if you can just right at the bottom of your founder, yeah, elizabeth Bunting.

Speaker 1:

So that would be grandma Elizabeth Froggatt, that would be mother. Oh, my goodness, isn't the writing terrible.

Speaker 2:

The writing's terrible. It looks like horse bunting, but it can't be.

Speaker 1:

So we've got Elizabeth Bunting, which is grandma. Yeah, we've got Elizabeth Froggatt, daughter 52, grandma.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and if you look, here it says widow.

Speaker 1:

Ah yeah, so we've got W for widow, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And then ditto for the 29-year-old.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, For the second, Elizabeth Elizabeth Froggatt, who's your great-grandmother. Her dad has died by 1881. So we know that he was alive in 1873 when she's born, but we know that by the 1881 census he's passed away.

Speaker 2:

I found this A fatal quarrel On Friday night. Richard William Froggatt, an engineer, aged 29, residing at Brightside near Sheffield, died at 29. Died from the results of a stab inflicted during a wrestling, tussle or fight with a man named Thomas White in the kitchen of the Carbrook Hotel, which is where his wife's mum owns, on the night of 18th January. The occurrence was apparently accidental. Hang him. Hanging's too good for him.

Speaker 1:

So this goes to court? Yes, and then we've got a really good description of what happened on the evening. Newspaper reports stated that on the 18th of January 1875, shortly before 11 o'clock in the evening, richard Juliet's great-great-grandfather walked into the kitchen of the Carbrook Hall Hotel, having just finished helping his mother-in-law, elizabeth Bunting. Thomas White, who was a friend of Richard, was sitting near the fire with a knife in his hand cutting some tobacco. He had been drinking, but Richard was sober and was described in the paper as a quiet and inoffensive man.

Speaker 1:

White challenged Richard to a play fight. The pair started wrestling and almost immediately Richard pulled away and stated that he was bleeding. He had been stabbed in the leg with the knife and there was blood running down the side of his trousers. White tried to stop the bleeding and cried bitterly when he realised that he had stabbed his friend. He was prosecuted for the stabbing and the case was heard at the Crown Court in Leeds, where the judge stated it was clear that the wound was the result of an accident and White was acquitted. I've got a picture of his grave if you'd like to see it.

Speaker 2:

Oh, Richard William Frogger, who died at Carbrook Hall January 22nd 1875, aged 29. We cannot, lord thy purpose see, but all is well that's done by thee.

Speaker 1:

So apparently his wife's on here as well, but no, she's not on here, so oh, there's a story there.

Speaker 2:

Uh, as a, she took off with thomas.

Speaker 1:

No, that's the drama. You'll be going home tonight with david writing a new pit line. So you may be wondering then, what happened to your great grandma's mum? Did she remarry? What happened to her?

Speaker 2:

yes, this is elizabeth 29 years old yep august 3rd at the parish church john punsbon gen of tinsley, to elizabeth, widow of richard william frogger of carbrook Hall. She gets married, doesn't say what year 1881.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so she gets married in 1881, which is just after the census is taken. But your great-grandmother never seems to live with her. She stays with her nana, basically At the.

Speaker 2:

Carbrook.

Speaker 1:

Hotel. Yeah, I've got a picture of the hotel. Do you want to see?

Speaker 2:

it. Oh, I'm fascinated to see this hotel. Yeah, so I can tell you a bit more about.

Speaker 1:

I imagine it a bit like a boarding house in Redlington yeah yeah, I suppose it is actually, but I can tell you a bit more about it if you'd like. So the hall dates back. Carbrooke Hall dates back to the 12th century. The hall was rebuilt in 1462 and it was actually used for a roundhead meeting during the siege of Sheffield Castle. Good God, during the English Civil War. The owner at the time was a gentleman called John Bright who was a close ally of Thomas Cromwell, and John Bright was a leading parliamentarian. Your ancestors, so your three times great-grandparents, william and Elizabeth Bunting, take over the hall in the 1860s. So before that I found William on the census and he has got his own flour mill. So I don't know how you go from flour to being a publican, which is what he's done. It is the most haunted hotel. It's not. Well, it's not a hotel anymore, it's now a Starbucks. It's not it is.

Speaker 1:

It's a place in sheffield. Some of the things that the starbucks staff have have seen and witnessed probably your great, great granddad probably is having a tussle with a knife in a yeah, kitchen but. I have a picture, so this is what it would have looked like when your ancestors had it. Oh, this is carbon.

Speaker 2:

It does just look like a boozer, doesn't it?

Speaker 1:

It does Sorry to interrupt the podcast for the next 60 seconds but, as many of you know, I am a proud supporter of the Power of One, an amazing organization that supports women across the globe who have dedicated their lives to animal rescue. Founded by Snezana and Milka, based in North Macedonia, the non-for-profit organisation is dedicated to rescuing and rehabilitating street dogs. In a country that is struggling with institutional challenges and poverty, they face immense obstacles. The organisation is desperate to raise £10,000 for a spray neutraaign targeting 150 dogs. Your donation, no matter the size, can really make a difference. Now I know times are tough, so if you can't donate, as I say every week, please just spread the word about this remarkable organisation and the work they are doing. Details about the organisation and the campaign can be found in the podcast description. Thank you so much for listening. Now back to Juliet's family tree. I'm just trying to think about your career. Have you always like from a young age? Did you know that that was always a field you were going to go in, juliet?

Speaker 2:

Did you know? I sort of did, I sort of did. I remember watching the telly from very, very young and it was the Blue Peter presenters and going I'm going to do that Really, yeah. But then I also wanted to be a nurse at one point, but the television was. I was mesmerised by what it was and storytelling. I used to play with my dolls and make me and my little sister play with the dolls and make up stories. We were constantly making up stories. So then I wanted to go to drama school. I wanted to go to RADA. From about the age of 10 or 12. I couldn't be a ballerina did you try it too tall to be a ballerina really.

Speaker 2:

Yes, mike, that was my problem so sad, um, but then, yeah, yeah, I, I did always want to go to RADA. I always wanted to be an actress, thought I thought it was an actress route that was going to take. So when, as soon as I went to not my first secondary school, but we went to boarding school, when we moved to Hong Kong, um, I started with speech and drama and diction from the day that I arrived there and did all of those speech and drama exams and did and stayed within then that drama world. So I suppose, I suppose really from the age of 12, I was on that path myself, knowing that that was the thing that that interested me the most and that was the thing that, um, uh, yeah, energised me, I suppose more than I've. I've never been academic. I'm not an academic kid, I'm not. Yeah, I don't do maths and I don't do you know all of that stuff. I can't.

Speaker 2:

I'm a bit more creative flighty, flighty, I don't know, but I don't have that sort of that. Yeah, I can't sit down with maths, physics, chemistry. It's like double-dutch to me.

Speaker 1:

But you must be very good at organisation Bossy. Well, some would say bossy. I'm looking at David David's nodding, david's nodding.

Speaker 2:

I am bossy, I've always been bossy. My mum will tell you from the day that I was born that I was organising everybody in the house, so I am one of life's great organizers. But I think that that then settles me, because if I know that all of those things are organized, then then a lot of stuff can, can, wax and wane and and um, surprise us. Because because the foundation of organization is there, I can't have everything floating about. I need, and I need a real structure and then everything can surprise you within, within that structure, which is what, certainly in my career, everything surprises us every minute of every day. There there's nothing you can take for granted, only that everybody, hopefully, is going to turn up at 8am, but even that sometimes, you know.

Speaker 1:

How you deal with that, then you know how you deal with those surprises.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love those surprises.

Speaker 1:

Do you? I do love those surprises.

Speaker 2:

I do, because I sort of feel that if I have done my work and my best work and the team, all of us together have done our best work in, you know, finding the greatest story, making sure we're telling the story correctly, find the greatest cast, find the greatest locations, find the greatest team to bring it all to life, if we have that structure, what we're going to shoot today? You know it comes all down to that, doesn't it? Where do we need to be today? What are we going to shoot today? What's our goals of the day?

Speaker 2:

If we have done all of that work as brilliant people, which is what we are then it's snowed. Shouldn't have done that. That person's sick. Oh, that's a bit of a worry. Might have to, you know, drop that scene and pull that scene in. Oh, you can't come in at all. Right, it's all right, we're gonna have to rewrite this so. So there are constantly bombs throughout the day, and that's that's what brings a new energy to it, because if you are too prepared and over prepared and over scheduled and and too rigid, then there isn't any room for energy, and so you need to to bring some energy into the room I'm just thinking about your family tree and those sort of everything you've described me there.

Speaker 1:

Do you think that comes, then, from the charlesworth side, the fact that you know reeves charlesworth, your great great granddad, set up this business in 1895. The fact that he was able to to manage a group of men which he would have been in them days, and he was seen, as you know, personable, fair, treated everybody well, which are the characteristics that I see in you, because in order for to have that great team, for that great team to work, they have to almost be guided by somebody that they respect, that they trust, trust that you know is fair and likeable, which is you right. So do you think you might have got some of those characteristics from your? Definitely got it from my dad.

Speaker 2:

And he must have. Maybe he got it from his.

Speaker 2:

Because I remember. So we moved to Hong Kong when I was 11 years old. We'd been living in Todmorden and dad had been in the office in Manchester itself with Keys, weirdly, which is now where I do work sometimes and dad built didn't single-handedly, obviously, but the new Hong Kong Shanghai Bank. It was new, I know I'm talking about 40 years ago. It was brand new this beautiful, huge building on the front of Hong Kong Harbour. And back then, and probably still now, the Chinese builders, the contractors, it was always um, bamboo, the um. All of the scaffolding would have been all bamboo and tied together with rope. Yeah, right, and they were just like, incredibly, it was the most unbelievable thing, but they would climb up it, just climb up it without the use of ladders.

Speaker 2:

And how many people chinese contractor builders, hong kong, chinese, fell from this scaffolding while they were building. There was a number, but I can't remember that number now. But I do remember dad coming home, sometimes going you know, this has happened and that's happened and he was pushing back then in hong kong which is something you sort of didn't do to actually have proper, the proper steel scaffs with the proper ladders to get up and down instead of, you know, literally used to jump. You'd see them, my God. But it was all over Hong Kong. All of the Hong Kong buildings were put up this way. So I do remember him pushing for that. Then I remember him pushing for health and safety.

Speaker 2:

I remember the conversations about people having died on the building plots and I remember when they finally they carried the very auspicious, these beautiful lions that I think that sat outside either side of this massive building beautiful, beautiful, big things, emblems of the Hong Kong Shanghai Bank, which they walked over in a procession on the day that the bank opened, this enormous procession and you had to go and touch you know polish his paws, the lion's paws, as he sat on the front then. But it was and that was all about. It was very auspicious and it was about belief and it was about about it was very auspicious and it was about belief and it was about it was. It was about making the that building safe and making his workforce safe. And I think a lot I.

Speaker 2:

I remember those conversations very well and I remember listening to those conversations and dad being quite passionate about the fact that people don't go to work, that people should be looked after much better in the workplace and so and I never knew my, I did know my, my grandpa dad's dad, yeah, but I never knew him well enough to listen into those conversations of his. But I think I think about my. Dad is a very fair man, he's a gentleman. Dad is a very fair man, he's a gentleman. He looks a bit like Terry Scott and he's got a lovely sense of humour and very warm and brilliant. So I think, in terms of the person that I am, I believe it would be more generated through my dad.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm just trying to think before we move on to your mum's side of the tree. But I'm just going to make sure that there was nothing else in this side that I've not shown you Only one murder. Oh no, I was a bit disappointed.

Speaker 2:

Oh Juliet, there's got to be a few killers.

Speaker 1:

Can we talk about your mum's side of the tree Now? Can we just say I know very little about this side. The reason I know very little about this side is because Juliet has done quite a bit of work.

Speaker 2:

Not me, okay, others, others within the family, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So if you are just tuning in, your grandparents are Eric Shaw and Josephine Wainwright yeah, mary Wainwright are eric shaw yeah, and josephine wainwright yeah, mary wainwright and eric shaw's parents are james kershaw and hannah louise fernley and josephine uh, josephine's parents are joseph appleyard, wainwright and lillian hinchcliffe hinchcliffe, yeah, hinchcliffe.

Speaker 1:

Can I just say I love the apple yard, I love that middle name and you know, when you think about where names come from, don't you? You know, you think, like Johnson, son of John, literally somebody's just gone apple yard. Yeah, that'll stay, yeah, yeah love it so do you want to tell me, then, a bit about that side of the family?

Speaker 2:

well, all I, I, I don't think I know as as much as you're hoping that I do, okay, um, so the wainwrights I know, I know that the wainwrights went to america. Yeah, I know that they, um, originally were manufacturing rope and hessian, I think, and then then moved to America on a wagon train. It took them weeks and weeks and like seven weeks to get somewhere. Yeah, and in one of the letters back there's a little bit of woe is me and we're not settling quite as well as we should have done. But don't tell anybody, tear this bit off if you show this letter to anybody.

Speaker 2:

You know it was all about show, wasn't it? But then they started Wainwright's Brewing. It was all about show, wasn't it? But then they started Wainwright's Brewing and it was the first skyscraper In America is the Wainwright building in St Louis which is still there and architecturally is listed and is now owned or occupied by the St Louis Council and it's the most magnificent building. So they obviously did in the end do very well, but I don't think it was that easy. But there were. So one family went over and then other members, you know, sisters and brother-in-laws and all sorts, went and joined in, but that was the Wainwrights over there. I think it's connected to the Wainwright brewers over here. Right, okay, it was sort of Preston Clitheroe way, aren, aren't they?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I would imagine that that sort of has always made sense in my mind that we must be the brewers. We're also connected on the Hinchcliffe Wainwright side to Wordsworth.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's correct.

Speaker 2:

And the Lakes Walker.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And, yes, the literary Elizabeth.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so there's Alfred W wayne, right alfred yeah he was the walker and I noticed I think it was his mom and javeri is here now who was born. I think in pennstone was that right his mom was born in, which is the area where you're. We all stayed there, yeah yeah, I was.

Speaker 2:

I was um christened there. Yeah, Granny was always in. She always lived in Peniston. My Granny never moved from Millhouse Green. Yeah, I think they always stayed there. My mum told me that they were sort of estate management people. They were people of the land.

Speaker 2:

They looked after other people's estates. They looked after land, land, land registry, land, selling um, because we used to drive around in my mum's land rover when I was little and she had a land rover for so long so she could see over hedges, um, and we could have a look and say, oh, how lovely is that, oh, how lovely, oh, look at that field, look at that moor, look at that horse. But she, she's very much that person of land and horses and moorland. So I know that there's art on that side. I think the Wainwrights were artists, I think the Wordsworths were writers, the Hinchcliffs, I've got no idea about, but it does seem quite colourful. And then I've got a Robert the Bruce story. That's written down in my bag of things.

Speaker 1:

Have you. So just let you know, juliet has brought the best bag of things you've ever met in your life. Honestly, I don't know if you're probably not going to pick this up. Beautiful people and beautiful pictures, absolutely beautiful pictures. Just a full treasure trove.

Speaker 2:

We just don't know who any of them are Of memories.

Speaker 1:

We just want to know who they are. What we could do, though, I could look and try and date some, and then it might narrow it down a bit.

Speaker 2:

That would be amazing. Yeah, but the Robert the Bruce thing, I think is from the Kirkpatrick's on the shore side. Okay, was that? An illegitimate child was bought by this hand servant, by this maid who was a Kirkpatrick, and they were bought back to wherever up in Scotland because they were Scottish, weren't they? The Kirkpatricks Wrapped in some tartan of Robert the Bruce and this baby obviously survived, but it was supposed to be the illegitimate son from from one of the housemaids housekeepers. It was supposed to be Robert the Bruce's son and this tartan was supposed to have lasted. And my auntie Josephine, who passed away not so long ago last year, she kept the tartan and then ended up putting it on, I don't know, polishing one of the horses with it.

Speaker 2:

That's literally what she says. I think I used it for the horse.

Speaker 1:

Wow, okay, that's the best story.

Speaker 2:

That's ridiculous.

Speaker 1:

Now the shores, is that the side where you have got the station master?

Speaker 2:

Yes, Eric Shaw. So my granddad was the station master.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for years A very well-respected station master.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I found a lot of newspaper articles about his time as a station master. I've got lovely pictures, have you yeah?

Speaker 2:

when Kings and Queens came and opened various stations. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And my granny. I have to say, when you do look at this tree and I've got pictures my granny, she lost him very, very young. It was the week before I was born when my granny lost my granddad Eric, and I never remember seeing my granny laugh. She did used to titter but not laugh. That side of the family aren't enormously funny people but she never really laughed. There's a picture somewhere of her, of the two of them together, grandpa and grandma together, and she's really laughing and it just struck me that that's an image that I've never seen. So the first time she left the house after grandpa died was to come and see me as a baby. So I was a little bit sort of the chosen one because because I think that was a little so, so close, and I always made it because I lived up here I made a huge effort to go and see Granny a lot.

Speaker 2:

She was lovely, granny was lovely, really posh, twinset and pearls all the time and a hostess trolley in a semi-detached in Penistone Love it. I know, I know Some of it doesn't make sense. That will be like me. I think she really thought she was something very, very special. They probably were. You said they were.

Speaker 1:

But she definitely had A's and. Grace's, definitely we're no average Joes. I'm very conscious, because we've been chatting forever, yeah, um, and that people's parking probably gonna run out and nobody wants a ticket that I should wrap this up, yeah. But before we do that, yeah, I'm going to do two things. The first one is a question that I ask everybody, and that is, if you could have anybody at all from your family tree for dinner tonight, who would it be and why and what would you cook them?

Speaker 2:

it would be the joseph wainwright who went to america ah yes, the very first one who went there because that was such a massive, huge trip. Ok, I would cook him. I'd cook him fish and chips, because he needs something northern, something homely, to come back to, and he probably hasn't eaten that well because he's been on his wagon train for so long. We would, we would talk about, we would, we would literally talk about Penniston versus Philadelphia. Um, why did you do it? Such a huge trip to do? Do you ever wish you didn't do it?

Speaker 2:

He did come back and he would come back for like a year at a time. It wasn't on coming back for the weekend, they would come back for like a year at a time. One time he went back and he met his seven and a half month old child. So so they he would come back for long periods. Now, was that because he missed it so much? Was he bragging? Was he getting more business together? I don't know, but, um, he's the one, I think. I think for a lot of us, he's the one who's who really jumps out as gosh, that was a big thing to do, wasn't it? That was a huge leap.

Speaker 1:

I think, especially when, like you said, so many of your ancestors from Pennystone didn't move, did they? No, everybody?

Speaker 2:

stayed.

Speaker 1:

But he just turned something about him, didn't he when he said right, OK, I can maybe provide a better life for my family, or whatever it was that made him take that trip.

Speaker 2:

And then, over the years, he must have turned up there with not much money he really must have. And then, over the years, doing this and doing you know, I'm buying this plot of land, I'm doing this business, I've met that person to do business with. Will you send me that money? So, so over the years he he made something remark, I mean utterly remarkable, in terms of of leaving your mark on this world. Um, so I think he is interesting, but I also think he's he is the one who has left us with the most written history, the most recorded history. I'm sure you know these very precious people, I'm sure they all did the most incredible things, but he was the one who left us the letters, left us the building, left us the Wainwright name. So he is certainly the one that you're always going to go to go tell me tell me more.

Speaker 1:

Well, I hope that. And also, every time you open a tin of bachelor's piece, I'll think about the building. I always think about reefs. Uh, should we just have a quick look at your traits and then wrap it up? Yes so you took an ancestry dna test, um, which told us three things it gave us your ethnicity estimate, which we can do now which we all know is yorkshire, yorkshire, um, your ethnicity estimate.

Speaker 1:

It also gave us, uh, something called traits, right, which is basically obviously a lot of where you get your traits from is environment, but also some can be found in your dna. So I am going to pick earlobes. So it's suggesting that you are more likely to have attached earlobes than non-attached earlobes, and we think that's true. Yeah, consensus, we think that's true, we'll go for that one. Now there is something called earwax type. I'm not going to go down that road. Would I ever know? Gosh, exactly. Hangriness, yes, okay. So now this is saying your dna is suggesting you don't get hangry, but david's looking shocked. So I'm thinking you do, I do. Now I'm not convinced of this one because this is suggesting you're just over half way more towards introvert than extrovert.

Speaker 2:

I think I am, do you? Yes, this is a really weird factor I was going to say because I thought because you're in the arts that you'd be quite. No, no, no, no, yes, really, yes, yes, it's a good job, we're mates. No, no, no, no, she's really socially unsociable. Yes, really, yes, yes.

Speaker 1:

It's a good job we're mates. Yes, I think we met over dogs, didn't we years ago? Yeah, yeah, mad dog people. So so, if the halfway mark, this is basically suggesting that you are more likely an introvert than an expert yeah, which we think is pretty true. Yeah, an introvert than an expert yeah, which we think is pretty true. Yeah, I'll go for picky eater. Let's see what it's saying about that. I'm gonna ask david, david, is juliet a picky eater?

Speaker 2:

I won't have anything you put in front of me really, yeah, right. And then, even like in restaurants, I'll go okay, here's the difficult one, could I please have? Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1:

So when I went, so when I went on set and met you. There was banana bread going round oh yeah, did you eat?

Speaker 2:

no, that was yeah. Andy, was it banana bread? Yeah, it was yeah. Yeah, I did eat that.

Speaker 1:

So we had andy's banana. Yeah, oh, I'll eat that cake. Yeah, yeah, I'll eat cake. Hello, yeah, I've got a very sweet tooth. Um, now, weirdly, your dna is suggesting if it's, if it's, if you've got the, did my dna suggest I was a picky eater. Sorry, your dna suggesting you're not really a picky eater. So, oh, my god, that is kind of. If you can see the scale I'm the pickiest eater. Yeah, I'm really so that's environment yeah your d DNA suggests that you're a morning person rather than a night person.

Speaker 2:

Yep, yep, yep, never go out after dark.

Speaker 1:

No, I'm just trying to find this. Here we go Right. Last one your DNA suggests that you don't like dancing. I don't.

Speaker 2:

I don't, I don't, I don't, yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1:

Juliet Charlesworth. Yes, thank you so much. Thank you so much For coming on my podcast. I've thoroughly enjoyed researching your family tree. I have never met, I suppose, such a family when I've been doing this research. That has left such a mark on a place, I mean in terms of things like better education, fighting for people, and that's just remarkable. And I know you have left your mark, so you're just from a family of mark makers.

Speaker 2:

Oh, and thank you so much. I've been so excited about all of this. I really have really have, and I'm sort of I am so fascinated in where I come from and who I am and why I am Not that it's going to change anything that I do, but I'm just fascinated by those who came. We both like history, dave and I. We walk around looking at history quite a lot and we're very interested in where we've come from and why we're here. But all of that is fascinating. I love it. I love from the tussle in the kitchen all the way to the million pound house. No, it's great.

Speaker 1:

It's great yeah.

Speaker 2:

Frank Sinatra popped in Frank Sinatra, but after we'd moved out he obviously thought, wait till that lot's gone.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. Thank you. So that is it for this week's podcast. I really hope you enjoyed my chat with Juliet Charlesworth. A huge thank you to my two production assistants, javeria Saleem and Lucy Stott. I also must say a huge thank you to Sam from the Power of One for supporting this podcast. Don't forget, if you would like any research doing, you can check out my research company, ross Thurn Research, at wwwrossthurnresearchcom. As always, a huge thank you to you, to every single one of you that has downloaded this podcast.

Speaker 1:

I can't believe we got to number five in the charts last week. That's huge, especially in our category, hobbies, because there aren't that many different types of hobbies as you can imagine. It's very competitive category. So thank you so much for listening and for suggesting guests as well. That's always really useful. If you have a guest that you would like us to research and have a chat to, then please get in touch. You can do so via my website, which is wwwmichaelahumecom, or on social media at Dr Michaela Hume. Have a great week researching folks and I shall see you very soon.