Unearth the Past: A family history & genealogy podcast

S2: Ep 4: Tracing Martin Murray's Roots: A Fascinating Journey of Resilience and Redemption

• Dr Michala Hulme • Season 2 • Episode 4

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Ever felt like life has dealt you a bad hand, and there's no coming back from it? Well, Michala's guest for today, boxing legend Martin Murray – former British and Commonwealth Middleweight Champion – is the embodiment of the saying, 'Where there's a will, there's a way.' Martin takes us through his tumultuous past, from a tough upbringing and prison stints to finding salvation in boxing. His story is a testament to resilience and transformation and how every experience serves a purpose in our lives.

But life doesn't always deal the same cards for everyone. Our journey takes a sombre turn as we unravel the heart-wrenching story of the Greenhalgh family. The tragic death of Elizabeth Greenhalgh, the repercussions on her son, John, and the war experiences of the Greenhalgh brothers are accounts that give us a glimpse into the dark side of life. These stories not only shed light on the struggles families go through during challenging times but also the impact they have on future generations.

Family is an integral part of who we are, and tracing back our roots can often lead to fascinating discoveries. As we dig deeper into Martin Murray's lineage, we uncover intriguing connections and surprising stories. From the significance of Silkstone Street in his family tree to tracing back his roots to Ireland, Martin's family history is as captivating as his personal journey. And as we bring this episode to a close, we even share some tips on how you can start your own journey of uncovering your family tree. So, are you ready to embark on this journey of discovery, despair, and determination with us?

To contact Michala, please visit http://michalahulme.com
To purchase Martin's brilliant book 'Sinner and Saint: The Inspirational Story of Martin Murray', click here.
A huge thank you to this week's sponsor, Witney Antiques.

Support the show

Speaker 1:

This week's podcast is sponsored by Whitney Antiques, an antique shop in the heart of Oxfordshire specialising in historic needlework. If you'd like to know more about Whitney Antiques, check out their website at wwwwitneyantiquescom. ["witney Antiques"]. ["witney Antiques"]. Hello and welcome to Unearthed Past. I am Dr McKaylee Hume, and this week we will be delving into the past of a man that needs no introduction. When it comes to boxing history, this man certainly made his 46 fights, with 39 wins, 17 by the way of knockout, six losses and one draw.

Speaker 1:

Martin Murray is the former British and Commonwealth mid-weight champion and five times world title challenger. His professional debut came in September 2007, with victory at the Robin Park Arena in Wigan. He went on to fight a who's who of legendary fighters, including Sergio Martinez, gnardi Golovkin, felix Sturm, billy Joe Saunders, to name but a few, headlining arenas and stadiums across the globe, from London to Monte Carlo to Buenos Aires. Martin blended a tough and compromising style, a fierce work ethic with silky boxing skills and knockout power in either hand Truly a fighter's fighter. That same work ethic can now be seen in his new endeavors as a professional boxing coach at the Wild Card Gym in his hometown of St Helens, passing on his knowledge to up and coming fighters under his watchful eye. He can also be found back in the community with his social education and boxing based program, think Fast, aiming to equip young people with the life skills needed to create better futures for themselves. Martin, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thanks a lot. That's the best introduction I've ever had, thank you. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1:

So how did you end up boxing and I know that you've been very honest in interviews that I've watched in the past about your younger years, but how? Did you end up on this A fantastic journey with that amazing career that I've just spoken about.

Speaker 2:

Obviously, boxing's always been. Where I'm from is St Helens. It's a well-known boxing town Obviously rugby leagues the first sport. But over the years has produced a lot of good fighters, a couple of them turned pro, not really done anything. There was a couple who cut a turn pro and really done something, one World Tags, people like John Lyon, but he never stayed amateur. But usually what you find is when there's loads of talent there, but when they get to 17, 18, they just society sex over.

Speaker 2:

And that's what it did with me. Like I was never a bad person, say this but I made some terrible, poor life choices. So yeah, obviously with that comes consequences of what you've done and sadly I ended up in prison four times. So you know it kind of like set back after set back, I just kind of picked myself up thinking, right, I've got on straight another now. And someone was always coming back from the past sending me back down and you know I got back into Going on to why I got into boxing. Like I said, I've only ever known boxing. There's always been a pair of boxing gloves in our family. Like I said, it's the area and a big part of it goes down to, you know down to a man called Johnny Chiz and all of a sudden he passed away in 2005.

Speaker 1:

Chizy.

Speaker 2:

Chizy, yeah, and he was. Johnny was a former professional fighter. Come from famous. There was four famous brothers in St Helens. Three of them played rugby league Eric Lesendave and one of them did boxing pro boxing, right, johnny Chiz. And Johnny was just dead.

Speaker 2:

Passion, obviously getting young people and he kind of from making him talk and what he spoke to me about. Over the years he wasted his career by drinking and going out and, you know, being overweight and fighting the wrong way and he was like passionate about making young people not make the same mistakes as he did. So he used to turn up on our estate the first moment they've got, obviously going to boxing and was being on our estate. He's constantly staying in St Helens. My mum's still living in St Helens we grew up in and Johnny Chiz just turned up on his bus and he wouldn't get away with it now but he just had loads of kids and he was throwing them back at the van. So that bad first memory of going to boxing Johnny Chiz with him throwing them back at the van, it doesn't sound right, does it? You won't get away with it these days, I'm likely so, but he's tough with the gym. He was a trusted pillar of the community.

Speaker 2:

I went there and I loved it. For me that was my safe space. There was a lot going on at home at the time, with my dad having a criminal past and out of the course system. He didn't have an education, he had to go. So I was providing for my dad. There was a lot of time without child and I was in prison and obviously what was going on these days was it, was it good? So that was the cesspit I mean. So I loved it. I took it up a love day and then just got into it proper and then when I got to 1718, failed an army test, decided to go and do what glad you failed that test now.

Speaker 2:

Well, everything happens for a reason, don't?

Speaker 1:

they.

Speaker 2:

Every and I'm firm believer of that because you always think like it. You know if, if it never of I wouldn't be in the position that I am now, I'd that not have happened at the time. It was bad, especially what happened after it. But yeah, just that's kind of I got. I fell into that site. That lifestyle ended up in prison, 2003. Come out 2004, when the ABS Fighting for England, everything look like it was going. I got on funding, funding and just been brought into play then. So I started getting monthly payments to box. I was living the dream. And then something come up from 18 months previously of a fight I was involved in, but it was cause of a stupid Overfrozen chips in a pizza shop. Wow. And then I come back and I got sent down for that because of me past. And then it just for like someone was always pulling me back.

Speaker 2:

And then 2006, admit gem, eight months before Gemma Bollett meant because she's not from, she's not from that, she's not like got a Life like me, growing up from different areas. I see, for me everything was normalized. The violence was normalized, going out, drinking, taking drugs was normalized. So for a, and going prison was normalized as well. You know Me me two brothers have been to prison. There's loads of people who we grew up with who went to prison. We did went to prison. Everything was normalized so. So it wasn't. It wasn't like out of the ordinary, but for her it wasn't and she made me realize that what you do is not normal. And it wasn't so as she was like you want to start doing me something for yourself. So I started focusing on myself and on Gemma, and then that's when things started to really Look open and be a lot more positive, like you know.

Speaker 2:

So when I come out the last time, johnny Chisholm always spoke about early. He sadly passed away in 2005 while I was in prison. I couldn't go. His female one of biggest regrets. I'll have footrest in my life because he did a lot for me.

Speaker 2:

John and and they Come out 2006 and I went to Johnny lighting, who'd had a gym in Wiggin, and I literally got out and just went to miss a. John, listen, I need so many. Sign me so many. Side me pops.

Speaker 2:

It's a weird explanation. Spoke with a man some are not couple months ago and he's he's been. He's been clean from heroin for six years. So I don't add it has been clean for six years. Every day is a fight for him. But he said he's on about the same thing and he said something. He said me pops. And that's that's exactly what happened to me. Anyway, I just thought, right, when I get out now I'm gonna change. So when I went to Johnny Johnny lines, jim and Wiggin and I went John, listen, mate, I need do something. Now with the dawns I went up in jail. I'm gonna Be bad on drugs, on, I'm gonna end up dead. And Johnny Johnny line, just don't be out in a trip, something every day training. And then I was still on license then. So with the British boxing board of control, the professional side of things this was amateur them is the professional side of things. You can't get a Professional career until you're free of any criminality.

Speaker 2:

Right, okay, so I had to wait to my license was was up and there was always temptations of obviously going back down that path and it's quite hard to get rid of them. So that was a bit of a struggle. But then me and Jim is just got an option wiggin vintage and we can moved off the area and we just stayed there and knuckled down. And then I got me professional lights in 2007 and then I just didn't look back. Then I just work, works hard and like, really focused and believed in and and In my sense, and I look online for so much.

Speaker 2:

But you know, more positive from where I had was in my life previously. Um, anything I was doing positive was always it was I was gonna be a success in what I was doing, but I always wanted to go anywhere and fight anybody. Um, you know, I'm just trying my best to know when I retired that I give it me all. You know, and I completely dedicated my life to it and and and and took on all the challenges and I did and I can. You know I'm at peace in retirement now knowing that I did that. Don't get me wrong. The couple of decisions could have gone my way feel extreme, so I'm not saying as after Abraham um could have gone my way. And in hindsight now, at the time I was up, but I'm not bothered now, but at the time like I just think, nice, you just one of them, you know, just brush it off onto the next one. But now when I look back on, I think I was done out of a lot of money.

Speaker 1:

Listen, it is when it is.

Speaker 2:

but I was done out of a lot of money but I don't, I don't, don't really get nothing. And you know, like I said, everything happens for a reason. So all them little setbacks, and you know I wouldn't be worried about a ham today if it wasn't for them. So you know, I'm mapping consent with the person that I am and what I've got. Don't get me wrong, I could have, I could have more, but I could have so much less as well, kind of.

Speaker 1:

There was somebody else who was very influential in your life.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And that's somebody in your book that you call Father. Yeah, yeah. So that would be your granddad. Yeah, on your, on your mum's side.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, talk to me a bit about him.

Speaker 2:

Obviously we called him Bulla.

Speaker 1:

Right, okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but me and my father? Yeah, yeah, I, like I said earlier, we were Johnny. Chiz was the first one who took me to the gym, Just Chiz and Bulla. Me and my father were best mates. Ah, right, okay, best mates. Right, we grew up on the same estate going up. Right, okay, they were best mates. Mm-hmm, my father used to always set the micaromy going on about. Oh, you know, you used to call me Fishing Chips, right? Because then, in the same television reporter.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Local paper. They used to have this thing called the naming she aimed and if she was in court, your name was there and he used to call me Fishing Chips, because they used to put Fishing Chips in paper back of their and this is what he used to call me. And obviously I just used to say. It's different now because of CCTV. When you and Chiz were around there wasn't none of that, but I guarantee you, if there was, you'd have been banged up. You know what? He was a lovely fellow, a hard fellow, but, like I said, him and John were best mates. He was the secretary at the club. He was up there every day. John first took me, then when I started getting into it, my father took me then. So my mum and dad didn't my dad drives and my mum still doesn't drive, but my dad didn't drive then.

Speaker 1:

But he used to take me here.

Speaker 2:

He'd pick me up at the gym and take me and nobody would bring me home. But yeah, he was a good fellow, good, you know. Good, you know the values that we've got now all of us like we've all got really strong family values and that definitely comes from I mean, it's amazing what my dad's done. I'm so proud of my dad, the upbringing he had in and out the car system and you know I always worked so much for his family, still working now. So proud of my dad. You know he's got a top job and he's grafted for that.

Speaker 2:

He's worked for that. But I think the strong family values side comes from that side, comes from the green outside definitely.

Speaker 1:

I decided to start the family tree with Martin's mum's side, the green outside, focusing on Buller's dad, Martin's great-granddad, a guy named John. John's birth certificate reveals that he was born on the 26th of July 1908. At the time of his birth, the family were living at Lawrence St Terrace in St Helens. John's dad is called Joseph and he was a general labourer, and his mum is called Elizabeth Greenout, formerly Davis, Now the next record I have, John, on, which would be your great-granddad is on something called the 1911 Census.

Speaker 1:

The 1911 Census reveals that John is living with his dad and his grandparents at 70 Silkstone Street in St Helens. The head of the household is Joseph Greenhouse Sr, who was born in 1861 in Bolton. Also in the house is his wife, Margaret, John's dad, Joseph, John's uncle, John, John's other uncle, William, John's auntie, Ellen, and John's grandma's brother, a guy called Charles Woods. So there's quite a few generations in the same house.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, the same house.

Speaker 1:

Yes, they're all living in the same house. Oh my God. And if you have a look at the bottom, it'll tell you how many rooms were in the house.

Speaker 2:

Four rooms.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's somewhat too Well, there's a couple of kids with all the adults out there. Yeah, all in four rooms.

Speaker 1:

If you actually look at the top column, if you look at Joseph and Margaret, it actually tells you how many children they've had, how many children were born alive and how many children have died.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah, so they had four living and three who died.

Speaker 1:

Yes, they had seven children all together. Four were still alive and three had passed away. I also want you to draw your attention to Joseph Greenhouse, the son.

Speaker 2:

Widdowd. Was he 25? Widdowd at 25.

Speaker 1:

John is born in 1908. We know that from his birth to his death.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

We know that by 1911, his mum has sadly passed away, and I've just got another document that I'd like to show you now.

Speaker 2:

When this lamp tragedy in quest was concluded on Monday, the journey it turned into a verdict of death from extensive burns. The cease was a live Elizabeth Greenhouse, wife, chemical laboring named Joseph Greenhouse, who's placed under arrest in consequence of evidence given when the inquest was opened. So we got nick for it and there. But they said she heard someone threatened to throw a lamp and a minute or two later she heard a crash and a scream. She ran into the house and found that he ceased with her clothing on under clothing on fire. In her dying deposition Miss Greenhouse said she was in bed when she heard a noise like a shot and jumping up she found the lamp ablaze and when she sees it, the hour of flood, unswerved clothing sitting on fire. The woman's father also said that Miss Greenhouse denied that her husband had caused the burns. I think quest greenhouse was remanded by the magistrates.

Speaker 1:

On the 3rd of September 1910, joseph and Elizabeth Greenhouse returned home with a portion of chips and a quart of ale. After eating the food, the pair went to bed, which was in the kitchen. Sometime after 1130, a neighbour named Sarah Thompson was walking past the house when she heard a man's voice say If you don't shut up, I'll throw the lamp. A few minutes later she hears a smash. The neighbour rushes in and sees Elizabeth on fire. Elizabeth was taken to the local hospital and while receiving treatment she stated that she was in bed when she heard a noise. She got up and she saw the lamp ablaze. As she grabbed hold of it, her underclothing caught on fire.

Speaker 1:

Four days after the event, elizabeth died from extensive burns. Joseph was apprehended for the crime. However, reports from the nurse who looked after Elizabeth in hospital and also her dad contradicted what the neighbour had said. He was subsequently released without charge. Had Joseph gone to prison, that would mean Martin's great-granddad, john Buller's dad, would have had no mum or no dad to take care of him. Elizabeth admitted when she was in hospital that they'd not had her effect married.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I just found this, so this is from 1909.

Speaker 2:

Joseph Green always belonged to St Helens. Someone by his wife, Elizabeth, for a vase of maintenance amounted to £4.13.

Speaker 1:

That's quite a lot of money. Yeah, yeah, is it?

Speaker 2:

At wedness on Monday. Defendant was described by Sir Issa to Mr Knowles as having been out of employment for months and had not been able to pay anything since the order was made last October. Having triumphed over his parts in search of employment but was unable to get it, defendant's mother offered to take a small house for them in St Helens but, complaining, declined the invitation. She said she would go about to her husband if he would take her, take her out of her family, from his family.

Speaker 1:

I don't think Elizabeth particularly liked the Greenhouse family. I think she wanted to raise her child away from the family.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

That then got me digging to think well, why didn't she like the family? So?

Speaker 2:

Like a lie, a wrong lie.

Speaker 1:

I'm just going to pass you this article and it's called Like a Shambles and it's from 1906.

Speaker 2:

Like a Shambles. Shane Sears that's a St Helens house. Shane Sears and Munda Joseph Greenhouse Labourer have remanded for a week chat with having unlawfully stabbed his wife on Saturday night. Chief Inspector Goodall according to the Chief Constable and going to the house, found the woman lying on the sofa saturated with blood and suffering from two dangerous wounds on the lower part of her body. There were two men stripped naked to the waist, fighting. They were all sort of up to 30 women in the house urging the mum. I was like a big odd. You know what I mean. The place was like a Shambles and they were just like lions fighting. Oh, my God Didn't expect this. Front Greenhouse died, front Morrie's buried off, not Front Greenhouse's.

Speaker 1:

I think they're probably quite a rowdy family. And maybe Elizabeth thought that she didn't want John being around that environment. Yeah, but he does go to prison for that incident.

Speaker 1:

He pleads guilty to the crime and he basically said that they'd had an argument. He was upset, he was irritated by the fighting, he struck her, but he didn't remember having a knife in his hand. He was really sorry for what happened. The judge sort of said to him look, if this had gone to the Assize Courts, which is like our Crown Courts, you know, you would have been severely punished.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But because you've admitted in, you're kept at the local courts. You will only serve five months in prison, so he goes to prison for five months. So you can imagine, up to this point John probably has your great-granddad not the most stabilized. Yeah, yeah, I think it's fair to say it starts in life.

Speaker 1:

Following the death of Elizabeth, joseph and his young son, john, leave St Helens and move to Widness. In 1914, he marries a widow by the name of Mary Lewis. Two days before the wedding, britain had declared war on Germany. The impact of World War I would devastate the Greenhouse family. John's dad, joseph, along with his two brothers, john and William, all sign up to fight. Now, the first one to sign up was John, that's the middle son and he signed up in 1914 and at the time he was working for Pilkington Glass. William, the youngest of the three brothers, he signs up. Next, he signs up in Warrington on the 1st of January 1915, and he's also working for Pilkington Glass. Now you're probably thinking why isn't John's dad Joseph working for Pilkington Glass?

Speaker 1:

I can tell you why he's not working for Pilkington Glass like the others, and that's because he gets sacked from Pilkington's.

Speaker 2:

I'm an apprentice named Joseph Greenholtz of Gerrards Bridge, st Tellings, was summoned by his employers, mrs Pilkington's brothers, at the St Tellings Police Court this morning, neglecting his work, mep prosecuted and said that so far back as the 17th of June 1901, there was an order of turning against him to attend to his work on the 5th of May 1902. Another someone was taken out against him and he got. 14 days After his imprisonment he worked unsatisfactory until the 9th of May this year and he not since attended his work. Defending did not appear on the bench, thinking it would be better for him to be present to offer any excuse during the case some Monday week.

Speaker 1:

He went to St Helen's Police Court for neglecting his work. He did end up going to prison for 14 days. So that's why when the war happens and everybody signs up in the family and they all work for Pilkington Glass, he doesn't. So William signs up, obviously he's working at Pilkington's. He joins the South Lancets Regiment on the 1st of January 1915. Joseph, who's Johnstead, who's the oldest of the boys, he signs up on the 4th of January 1915 in Warrington and he's posted to the 2nd Battalion of the South Lancashire Regiment on the 20th of January 1915. Only a few days before William and Joseph sign up, their mum receives news that I don't think any mum would want to receive, and that is that John has been captured by the Germans and he's been held in a prisoner of war camp. With him being held in a prisoner of war camp, excuse me. So then, after that, what's your other two sons, your only?

Speaker 2:

two sons sign up.

Speaker 1:

That must have been really difficult. That must have been. I mean, you've got kids right, can you imagine?

Speaker 2:

what?

Speaker 1:

that must have been like Now, out of the two brothers that then have just signed up, out of Joseph and William. William does seem to adapt to military life, I think just a bit quicker than Joseph. So he rises up the ranks quite quickly and by 1915 he is appointed acting sergeant. So he moves up quite quickly. Now Joseph, on the other hand, he wasn't the most well-behaved soldier when he first joined. So he gets into trouble for being absent three times and he was fined in one instance. In February of 1950, he was actually detained for 21 days for being absent from inspection while under orders for active service On the 22nd of September. The battalion is involved in some really heavy fighting, close to huge. We know from the war diary that the conditions were really tough, mark.

Speaker 1:

So, the day started off pretty muggy and by the evening the rain commenced and it lasted for over two hours. This made conditions really uncomfortable for the soldiers and at some point during that day that Joseph is injured in a shrapnel shell explosion. I have his medical records.

Speaker 2:

Do you?

Speaker 1:

like to see it. I've got them here.

Speaker 2:

I have here.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Let's have a look On. The 26th of September 1915, the cease shrapnel shell wound, left leg and an ankle. The patient was admitted on the 26th of September 1915. He was found by a shrapnel shell explosion on the 22nd of September 1915. And jets with anti-antenex serum. 23rd of September the patient stated that he had only been dressed once since being wounded. On the 24th On admission, the leg chewed two large wounds. On either side of the leg there was a compound comminuted fracture of the tibia, the wound of exit being large and ragged. This shard was foul and pus. The shard was a small superficial wound. The forearms shooed several small wounds on the anterior surface and one on the posterior.

Speaker 2:

General condition patients is ill, look sanctuary and shoes some collapsed temperature under for an IP 120. The symptoms of the patients is worse. The leg is swollen and the wounds are more offensive. The wound has commenced. The patient has a rigor in the afternoon and became somewhat the lairiest. Patient was taken to the operating theatre and under gas and amputation of the lower third of the thigh was performed. The method used was circular phallopsin straight through the bone. Gas gangrene was present in the amputated portion of the limb. The patient took the anesthetic vadala and no more was given after. So he died. The leg was removed. The wound was left open. 28th September the gas gangrene spread up the limb and into the pelvis. The patient died at half 12. God bless him.

Speaker 1:

The person who carried out the actual amputation on his leg and fought to save his life.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Was a guy called Sir Harold Delph Gillies. He was a New Zealand surgeon who was posted to France in 1915. And he is a really esteemed surgeon. He's regarded as the father of plastic surgery. And he pioneered facial reconstructive surgery for soldiers during the war. Now his medals and all his possessions and I'll let you have, you can take that back with you, you can have a look at it. His medals and all his possessions would naturally go to his new wife.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But she is very clear that they are kept in trust for John. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

For.

Speaker 1:

Bullard's dad Right. So she's very clear that they are kept in trust, basically not because she's got children of her own from another marriage.

Speaker 2:

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

That they are kept for him. I've got a picture of him if you want to see it. Yeah, yeah definitely.

Speaker 2:

yeah, I'd say he's got a green ultranose like.

Speaker 1:

That's Bullard's grandad.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for your mum's great grandad, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I want to go back to the war.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

We've got John, who's been taken in a prisoner of war camp.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And we've got Joseph, who has sadly passed away, and then we've got William, who is still fighting, which must have been, you know you probably just want him home, wouldn't you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, of course you would, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

You know like let's just bring him home. William, at this point, when Joseph dies, is still on home soil. He hasn't gone to friendship. He's not posted to France until July of 1917. And that year he was promoted to Lance Sergeant. Now, during the autumn of 1917, his battalion, which was the eighth regiment of the South Lakes, were involved in some really heavy battles and unfortunately William is killed in action on the 18th of November 1970. So she's lost, william. Yeah she's lost Joseph. John is still out, so that's her only son.

Speaker 1:

Yeah is still somewhere in a prison of war camp. John remains in the prison of war camp for four years.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

He doesn't get out. Well, he writes. Actually in October of 1918, he writes home and says that he's hoping to be released imminently. But it doesn't quite happen straight away. He he gets released on Boxing Day of 1918. I've got a picture of John if you want to see it. Yeah yeah, I've also got the letter that he wrote. That appeared in the local press.

Speaker 2:

Fascinating, isn't it? Like how you can find out the issue that you don't have, that you don't know about.

Speaker 1:

So that is him writing to his dad.

Speaker 2:

Dear father, at last a long talk of exchange of prisons between England and Germany is about to take place, and I and a lot of my companions expect to arrive in England in October. I received the photo I sent safely, and if so, you might put it in the same telling newspaper. I also wish to thank you with all my hard-working friends who, joining my captivity, have continued to dispatch parcels of food and clothing to me. You might also you might also ask some of them to drop me a line now and again, trusting to see you all soon. I remember, except your, john Greenholtz. So long, regiment one or three, five, no way I've got a picture of him, john and see yeah, definitely yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's not the best picture because it's taken from a newspaper, but you can kind of see what it looks like yeah. He's got a strong tashed game going on.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, naughty tashed, haven't it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think.

Speaker 2:

I'm curling up at the sides as well.

Speaker 1:

Now I'm going to stick with that family, because you may think you are the only sportsman in your family, but I would like to tell you, martin Moide, you are not, that's amazing.

Speaker 2:

I can't wait to listen to this, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Stick in with Martin's mum's side of the tree. If we go back to Martin's great, great great grandfather, joseph, he had a cousin who was a famous footballer. Samuel Greenholtz signed for Baltimore Wanderers in 1902. And in 1905, baltimore runners up in the league. Now he remained at Baltimore Wanderers until he made his big money move to Aston Villa in 1906. His transfer fee was a reported £550. And for that he received £10.

Speaker 1:

He went on to make 32 appearances for Aston Villa during the 1906-1907 season and he was never substituted. However, he couldn't settle in Birmingham and he wanted to go back home to Bolton. Aston Villa didn't want to let him go and their supporters apparently were unhappy. But with interest from other clubs such as Liverpool, bolton had to pay Villa £700 for the transfer in 1907. Bolton went on to win the league in 1909 and he stayed at Bolton until 1913, making 163 league appearances. He did play in the FA Cup final in the 1903-1904 season and that's where Bolton lost one nil to Manchester City. He never won a full England cap, although he was named as a substitute on two occasions. After retiring, samuel went back to work. He worked as a labourer in an iron foundry and then as a road sweeper, you may be wondering what sort of training Bolton were doing at this time.

Speaker 2:

Ah, so the boxing.

Speaker 1:

So part of their training regime and he's in that image is boxing. So here is a picture of him in his Bolton Wanderers kit and he's the gentleman with his arms crossed. How hard is it, martin, when you retire and you go from like this guy's gone from thousands of people screaming his name every week to then being a normal sort of civilian on the street. Is that transition hard?

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, I mean it is.

Speaker 1:

I mean I know it's different because there was no money then.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

You know like you can basically now plow your time into your charity work.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And helping others. Obviously, for him you probably just did whatever you could to put food on the line. Yeah, that's it, just to survive.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, it's hard, I mean especially for him, like the money beginning paid back then, yeah, it must just be really humbling for him in it, like you know what I mean, but it is hard. Speaking personally, it is hard, well, I guess him, for him, especially if he's not ready to retire. I was lucky I was ready to retire, so it was, the transition was a lot more easier than it might have been for him. Like you know, I never knew that I would link links up with boxing gloves there and as well I wonder what it was like as a fighter.

Speaker 1:

I'm just going to show you. There is a particular road that is really prominent in your family tree on the Greenhouse side.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right, and that is Silkstone Street. Silkstone Street is where your family lived and it's where sort of all these events tended to happen on the Greenhouse side.

Speaker 2:

Right, okay, I wonder where that is now. It'd be interesting to know that.

Speaker 1:

But it links quite nicely. You probably think that your mum's side of the family and your dad's side of the family didn't know each other before your mum and dad got together, right, or they might. Maybe a generation back before that, I imagine you probably wouldn't have thought they'd have known each other.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, I can tell you that your great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents on your mum and your dad's side did actually know each other because on the 1911 census they were neighbours.

Speaker 2:

Were they.

Speaker 1:

So one family lives at 70 and the other family lives at 72, 72 Silkstone Street.

Speaker 2:

Next door.

Speaker 1:

Next door to each other.

Speaker 2:

So my mum's great-grandparents, I mean dad's great-grandparents, great-great-great-grandparents, grandparents live next door to each other.

Speaker 1:

Wow 70 and 72.

Speaker 2:

That's mental innit.

Speaker 1:

And then it what three, three, four generations later, yeah, yeah. The kids would meet and marry and you're here, so all the goings on with the Greenhouse family it obviously didn't put the Murray side off. No, they still met. So let's move on to the Murray side.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So you are actually not Martin Murray.

Speaker 2:

Don't worry yeah.

Speaker 1:

If we go back in your family tree and we go to your great-grandad, I'm going to show you his birth certificate and then I'll explain what I mean. He was born on the 28th of July 1891 and the family at the time were living in Mill Street.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But you'll notice, if I just swizzle this round, that there's a gap where the dad is.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And that is because when his mum, mary Ellen, had him, she had him out of wedlock and she's not listed the dad, if we're thinking traditionally, where you take the name of your dad, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

That means that when we go to your great-grandad, the Murray name comes from his mum, not his dad. Right, okay, yeah, so technically it would have been. Murray, it wouldn't have been Murray yeah. I can tell you a bit about his mum, then if we talk a bit about her, yeah so she has him in 1891.

Speaker 1:

At the time she's employed as a servant. He's born in the July and the census is taken just a couple of months before that 1891 census. She's on that census working for a family in West Arby, liverpool, and the family are butchers. And she must have been heavily pregnant at that time. But she must have been hiding it because as soon as you were pregnant you would have lost your job.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So she must have been concealing the fact that she was pregnant. So we know William is born in 1891, and then his son is Alfred, who would be your grandfather, and when I was looking for him I actually found a record. And the reason I found this record, by the way, is because when I looked for the grave, there was somebody in the grave that I couldn't place, and I actually found that the person that I couldn't place was Alfred's brother.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

This article relates to Alfred's brother, and Alfred's brother is called William.

Speaker 2:

Right. St Selling's boys' tragic mistake poisoning of fruits. Unusual case of a skilled boy's death resulted in a poisoning due to his having eaten part of a wire plant was investigated at St Selling's today. The inquest was on William Murray, aged 13, of 9 bulletin street, st Selling's, who died in the Providence Hospital on Tuesday. Boys went to a pit and pulled up some plants by the reach. They broke off a portion of the reach and took it to a dirty, stagnant pit nearby. They washed it and thought it was sweet scented flag. Some of the boys tried to chew it but did not like it and spat out. Murray was said to have swallowed some of it. Wow, and he died of that.

Speaker 1:

So that's your granddad's brother. So he was only 13.

Speaker 2:

And he asked me dad's uncle.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, starting with Martin's granddad Alf, I have managed to trace the Murray line all the way back to Ireland. John Murray, born in 1835, was the first of the Murray's to come and settle in the Northwest. In 1864, he marries Mary Hoare in Prescott and the couple go on to have four children, three girls and one boy. Records suggest that John came from Galway in Ireland. We don't know much about his early life, but when he came to St Helens he found employment as a coal miner. So, martin, that's it for your street.

Speaker 2:

It's amazing that.

Speaker 1:

thank you, he's been there I was going to say reflecting on that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I don't know. I feel like a bit like you know one is. You can kind of explain, like, going back to the Green Alticea, for example, alf, he was always in trouble and you know that's pretty much like you know, half a liver falls far from the tree, does it like to wave, kind of like that's been carried on. But and then obviously the Murray's side. He's like I'm getting a bit of a strange feeling because it's been getting up first and I didn't know I had that. You know that. I didn't think he had that.

Speaker 2:

I'm thinking now and I can't wait. It's on me mum, it's on me dad, but I think it's first to say that the Murray's are the best they've ever been in it. Do you know what I mean? And I were doing like for what we've gone on in the past. So, yeah, it's been, it's been really really good and really interesting and my mind's just going to be working overtime now just thinking of things, but thanks to that, it's been brilliant. I think that's the vicious circle. Finally brought now, it's been really, really interesting.

Speaker 1:

I would have loved to have gone round for a. Christmas party on Silks.

Speaker 2:

Can you imagine on?

Speaker 1:

Silksstone Street I can't wait.

Speaker 2:

I found out where that is. I'm where it used to be. Martin Murray, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Thank you, you really appreciate me. Oh, no, thanks a lot. Thank you so much. Thanks for being brilliant. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

So that is it for this week's podcast. Thank you so much for Martin for letting us investigate and delve into his family history, and a huge thank you to you as well for listening. You can probably tell by my voice that I've been under the weather for the past few days. That's why I didn't release a podcast last week, because I literally had no voice and the joy. Anyway, we crack on. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to our sponsor this week, whitney Antiques. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

I couldn't make these special episodes without you. Also to Ancestry for providing me with the DNA kit, and to four of my students from the University of Birmingham who have been doing some research for this show. That's Amy Boyd, olivia Chaplin, emma Matthews and Matilda Dimane. Thank you so much. Don't forget, if you like this podcast, please remember to download and subscribe. If you want to get in contact with me, you can do so via my website, which is wwwmakaylithumecom. I've got a very special episode for you next week. Get issues ready. Have a great week researching. Don't forget this is the time to quiz your relatives during this Christmas break. This is the perfect time to start your family tree. Have a great week researching. See you next week.